4 ms·

I think like some countries do mandatory military service, mandatory retail experience would do a lot of good for some people. Not until you have dealt with ret

I think like some countries do mandatory military service, mandatory retail experience would do a lot of good for some people. Not until you have dealt with retail or restaurant customers are you truly armored against harshness the world. Seeing it from the other side also helps to build empathy for the people working the retail space.

arkitaip 9y ago
Worked in retail in various positions and I would also recommend the retail experience for any aspiring entrepreneur, especially folks tumbling down the e-commerce rabbit hole. Being able to provide good customer service while under fire builds character. That or it will break you and you will flee retail like the plague.
- manyxcxi 9y ago
  I think it's a huge character builder. You realize that some people are outright assholes and the most annoying thing you can do to them is keep your cool and kill them with kindness. Others are actually stupid, but most are just uninformed about whatever it is when they're 'bothering' you with questions. There are so many sysiphian tasks in retail that you either come to the point where very little can shock you, or you're just kind of broken.
refurb 9y ago
As a parent, I am sure as hell going to have my kid working a retail job for at least a few summers. It helps kids realize the kind of job they'll have if they don't work hard for something better (that was a huge incentive for me) and the kind of shit retail workers put up with (and that you should try to make their lives better).
- manyxcxi 9y ago
  My first 'real' job in HS I worked in the warehouse at Circuit City as seasonal staff (getting ready for the holidays) in 1998/99. 5am Saturday truck unloads, snotty people pissed that you can't fit a 32" CRT in the back seat of a Honda Civic, getting 100+ pound TVs from 3 stories up. Eventually I got the happy talk that I was no longer seasonal, I was sticking around- I was the only warehouse guy that got that and I was proud, even though it was $7/hr job with me carrying heavy shit, my work ethic was being acknowledged. You learn a lot about gracefully doing things you don't really want to and finding a way to be the best you can be at the task at hand and deriving your satisfaction from doing the best you can, knowing that you gave it honest effort. I hustled my ass off, it was mindless, things were heavy and I was the big strong guy- that meant I got 90% of the fridges and rear projections and monster CRTs (looking at you Sony). I became 'that guy' for something, I had a 'skill' useful to the business that stood above others, that became my motivation. Do good work, stand out with quality. Follow that with stints as a motorcycle mechanic, a farm hand on a dairy farm, a job site laborer, and a summer doing roofs- there's literally nothing I can be asked to do in an office environment that is more grueling or requires more effort than any of those things- and I pay more in taxes every year than I probably made at all of those jobs combined. I've been in the middle of some pretty shitty projects where I was having to give people the pep talks to keep them from quitting or to see it through to the end. 24+ year old 'adults' literally crying about not being able to take it anymore. I don't look down on them for being emotional, hell, I don't look down on them at all, but my first thought every time is you have no idea what a tough day of work really is. As an aside, I'm not talking about not being able to handle harassment or some type of political infighting or all of those interpersonal issues that can have real and lasting emotional consequences. I'm talking about a shitty project or grueling stretch of work that has gone sideways that has everyone working long hours to try and save it.
  - westoncb 9y ago
    > you have no idea what a tough day of work really is. It seems like people have pretty varied relations to this stuff. I've worked in landscaping, bussing tables, stocking groceries, counter at a bagel shop, among others—and my reflections now are generally on how nice and easy it was to do that work. Being exhausted physically (e.g. 10 hour grocery stocking shifts and 4 mile bike ride each way, uphill on the way back) has upsides to it. There's a kind of satisfaction that happens afterward—you worked hard, and now you're finished. When things are bad in software development, they're just bad: you don't feel rewarded for going through the struggle, and there are rarely neat conclusions to things. Additionally, people may just be 'wired differently' (or have different life experiences or whatever), so that when you see the 24+ year old adults crying, the may actually be going through something more difficult than what you've experienced in a work context.
    - manyxcxi 9y ago
      > Additionally, people may just be 'wired differently'... That leads back to my statement about not judging them per se. I can't ever imagine work/business related stuff, or even just general stress leading me to tears. But I'm also hyper logical and tears just aren't how I shed that storm cloud. I don't look at it as a macho or manly thing either, some of the most rugged 'manly' men that I've ever met (special forces, ridiculous outdoorsmen, Olympic wrestler), and admire greatly for their intestinal fortitude would shed a tear at all kinds of things I couldn't imagine, I just don't think stress would be one of them. I also fully expect in most cases that a root cause for an unexpectedly 'over the top' reaction probably has to do more with something I'm either oblivious to or something else that's going on.
      - westoncb 9y ago
        It's possible you're judging 'em a little more than you think—though putting "adult" in quotes may have just been a slip ;)
anotherevan 9y ago
This reminds me of a comment I made on a programming blog a while ago: "I sometimes wonder if young programmers should be required to work for a year in a cube farm with fluorescent lighting, no windows and only instant coffee. Say in a government department or something. We could think of it as the IT equivalent of compulsory military service."

arkitaip 9y ago

Worked in retail in various positions and I would also recommend the retail experience for any aspiring entrepreneur, especially folks tumbling down the e-commerce rabbit hole. Being able to provide good customer service while under fire builds character. That or it will break you and you will flee retail like the plague.

manyxcxi 9y ago
I think it's a huge character builder. You realize that some people are outright assholes and the most annoying thing you can do to them is keep your cool and kill them with kindness. Others are actually stupid, but most are just uninformed about whatever it is when they're 'bothering' you with questions. There are so many sysiphian tasks in retail that you either come to the point where very little can shock you, or you're just kind of broken.

refurb 9y ago

As a parent, I am sure as hell going to have my kid working a retail job for at least a few summers. It helps kids realize the kind of job they'll have if they don't work hard for something better (that was a huge incentive for me) and the kind of shit retail workers put up with (and that you should try to make their lives better).

manyxcxi 9y ago
My first 'real' job in HS I worked in the warehouse at Circuit City as seasonal staff (getting ready for the holidays) in 1998/99. 5am Saturday truck unloads, snotty people pissed that you can't fit a 32" CRT in the back seat of a Honda Civic, getting 100+ pound TVs from 3 stories up. Eventually I got the happy talk that I was no longer seasonal, I was sticking around- I was the only warehouse guy that got that and I was proud, even though it was $7/hr job with me carrying heavy shit, my work ethic was being acknowledged. You learn a lot about gracefully doing things you don't really want to and finding a way to be the best you can be at the task at hand and deriving your satisfaction from doing the best you can, knowing that you gave it honest effort. I hustled my ass off, it was mindless, things were heavy and I was the big strong guy- that meant I got 90% of the fridges and rear projections and monster CRTs (looking at you Sony). I became 'that guy' for something, I had a 'skill' useful to the business that stood above others, that became my motivation. Do good work, stand out with quality. Follow that with stints as a motorcycle mechanic, a farm hand on a dairy farm, a job site laborer, and a summer doing roofs- there's literally nothing I can be asked to do in an office environment that is more grueling or requires more effort than any of those things- and I pay more in taxes every year than I probably made at all of those jobs combined. I've been in the middle of some pretty shitty projects where I was having to give people the pep talks to keep them from quitting or to see it through to the end. 24+ year old 'adults' literally crying about not being able to take it anymore. I don't look down on them for being emotional, hell, I don't look down on them at all, but my first thought every time is you have no idea what a tough day of work really is. As an aside, I'm not talking about not being able to handle harassment or some type of political infighting or all of those interpersonal issues that can have real and lasting emotional consequences. I'm talking about a shitty project or grueling stretch of work that has gone sideways that has everyone working long hours to try and save it.
- westoncb 9y ago
  > you have no idea what a tough day of work really is. It seems like people have pretty varied relations to this stuff. I've worked in landscaping, bussing tables, stocking groceries, counter at a bagel shop, among others—and my reflections now are generally on how nice and easy it was to do that work. Being exhausted physically (e.g. 10 hour grocery stocking shifts and 4 mile bike ride each way, uphill on the way back) has upsides to it. There's a kind of satisfaction that happens afterward—you worked hard, and now you're finished. When things are bad in software development, they're just bad: you don't feel rewarded for going through the struggle, and there are rarely neat conclusions to things. Additionally, people may just be 'wired differently' (or have different life experiences or whatever), so that when you see the 24+ year old adults crying, the may actually be going through something more difficult than what you've experienced in a work context.
  - manyxcxi 9y ago
    > Additionally, people may just be 'wired differently'... That leads back to my statement about not judging them per se. I can't ever imagine work/business related stuff, or even just general stress leading me to tears. But I'm also hyper logical and tears just aren't how I shed that storm cloud. I don't look at it as a macho or manly thing either, some of the most rugged 'manly' men that I've ever met (special forces, ridiculous outdoorsmen, Olympic wrestler), and admire greatly for their intestinal fortitude would shed a tear at all kinds of things I couldn't imagine, I just don't think stress would be one of them. I also fully expect in most cases that a root cause for an unexpectedly 'over the top' reaction probably has to do more with something I'm either oblivious to or something else that's going on.
    - westoncb 9y ago
      It's possible you're judging 'em a little more than you think—though putting "adult" in quotes may have just been a slip ;)

anotherevan 9y ago

This reminds me of a comment I made on a programming blog a while ago: "I sometimes wonder if young programmers should be required to work for a year in a cube farm with fluorescent lighting, no windows and only instant coffee. Say in a government department or something. We could think of it as the IT equivalent of compulsory military service."