9 ms·

Sheep are not stupid, and they are not helpless either

80 points by r721 10y ago

return0 10y ago
They may not lack intelligence but they are not fun. They are boring. They keep to themselves. They are very "sheepish". They are not emotional, except horny rams. They don't socialize with humans. They are scared of everything. They are herdish and their herd makes dumb decisions. Very few of them are outliers in behavior/intelligence. I grew up with sheep. I 'm sorry sheep, you are dumb.
- hprotagonist 10y ago
  goats are way more entertaining. i grew up working on a farm that had about 20 head of sheep, 20 nubian goats for milk, and a handful of pygmies for meat. Goats are fascinating. Sheep largely keep to themselves.
  - cidibe 10y ago
    Second that. Goats can be pretty dog-like as far as loving human attention and playing.
  - merpnderp 10y ago
    I used to have 7 and just handed off my last two to another hobby farm. Even after 9 years Red my oldest doe, was friendly, curious, and very social. Sundance, her oldest wether, was playful and very dog like. Goats make great pets.
  - kwhitefoot 10y ago
    > and a handful of pygmies for meat. Is cannibalism legal where you are?
    - unit91 10y ago
      Pygmy is also a type of goat. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmy_goat https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmy_goat
    - RugnirViking 10y ago
      Is cannibalism legal anywhere at all? I'd be surprised if it was.
- telesilla 10y ago
  I also grew up around large flocks of sheep and found that when you isolate a young lamb and socialize it: lots of fun. Socialized lambs will recognize human friends and will respond to a given name and hang around and play. But after a year or two, after any time spent back with the flock, they forget humans and revert to being one with the herd. Older isolated sheep just get mean and end up being lawnmowers if not mutton. I figured we'd just bred the fun out of them, with a small remaining playfulness coming out while a lamb. I'd be curious to know more about wild sheep.
  - B1FF_PSUVM 10y ago
    > being one with the herd Well, thanks to the internet, now we have a choice of herds. Baaaah.
    - louithethrid 10y ago
      There is only one herd- and it is full of gnus.
  - jrimclean 10y ago
    Growing up an a hobby farm with 20-40 (depending on the time of year), this is my experience too. Lambs are playful and full of spunk, but as they grow older they quickly become full-time grazing machines. Rams are just vicious.
    - dankohn1 10y ago
      Classic HN here that no matter how obscure the topic, we have posts from 3 different people with real world experience.
      - sillysaurus3 10y ago
        My favorite was the person who happened to be burning a boat for fuel when it was being debated whether a crew could survive a shipwreck for years by using the ship as a fuel source. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10803552 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10803552
- stinos 10y ago
  I 'm sorry sheep, you are dumb I don't own sheep but did spend some time with them and came to the same conclusion. However I also don't think that research is incorrect. As such I am assuming the missing link is the learning part: is it possible they are capable enough but being in a herd suppresses this / has no use for it so it doesn't come out? Due to lack of stimulants, lack of apparent need to learn something?
- _rpd 10y ago
  I am a sheep owner. I like sheep. However, sheep are, in fact, the dumbest mammal I have ever encountered.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
TulliusCicero 10y ago
> found that they can recognise and remember at least 50 individual faces for more than 2 years. That is longer than many humans. What? I was under the impression that humans could generally remember long-term hundreds of faces, if not thousands. You may not always be able to remember everyone's name, but you remember their face. The idea of someone not being able to remember even fifty individual faces sounds bizarre to me, unless we're talking about a person with a serious mental handicap.
- mod 10y ago
  Particularly when you haven't seen countless thousands of other faces in the meantime. As an anecdote, I used to work with large groups of children (summer camps & sports programs). I would allow myself one day to learn all of the new kids' names, which was > 50 at the start of any new thing. I don't remember all of their names now, after 10-15 years, but I assure you that you could give me a lineup (of them at the time) and I could pick out the kids I worked with. Hundreds and hundreds of them. I wouldn't have a 100% success rate, no doubt, but I think a very good one.
- Coincoin 10y ago
  Typical science articles bullshit we see around all the time. The funny thing is the author is technically not lying because I am sure we could find "many", that is, at least 2, humans who can't recognize more than 50 faces.
Animats 10y ago
Domestic sheep have been bred to produce more wool, not jump fences, and to be herd-bound and submissive. That started millennia ago.[1] Unless you find wild sheep, you're not seeing the normal animal; you're seeing a human-created meat and wool machine. [1] http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/sheep/ http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/sheep/
- nickpsecurity 10y ago
  That's a great point we should never forget with agriculture and livestock. Many of these things are a watered-down form of what's found in nature.
andyjohnson0 10y ago
Twenty plus years ago I was hiking on the North York Moors in England, which is an area where herds of sheep live wild on the moorland for most of the year. I came to a cattle grid (cattle guard in the US [1]) and a group of sheep were crowded at one side, obviously wanting to cross but unable to do so. Lots of baaaing and jostling. Then one of the sheep did an amazing thing: it lay down and rolled it's body over the cattle grid, then stood at the other side staring at the rest of the group. They didn't follow, and eventually drifted away. I've never seen or heard of that happening before or since. I sometimes wonder if that sheep was some kind of once-in-a-generation freak: a kind of Leonardo da Vinci outlier. I like sheep. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_grid https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_grid
- tokenizerrr 10y ago
  From the article you linked: > While these barriers are usually effective for cattle,[23] they can fail due to ingenious animals. Sheep searching for food have been known to roll over grids, jump across them, step carefully into the spaces[24] or run along the side of grids as wide as 8 feet (2.4 m). [24] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rIbZWblPaA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rIbZWblPaA
  - tnorthcutt 10y ago
    The very next video youtube suggested shows two sheep, surrounded by lush green fields, climbing onto steep, wet rocks on a hillside in an attempt to reach some grass in the middle of the rocks. One of the sheep falls, presumably to its death or at least to a significant injury. They may be clever, but they seem... dumb. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m2HJpGtv70 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m2HJpGtv70
    - oh_sigh 10y ago
      To be fair, one was a lamb which was just following the adult, and was still alive and healthy by the end of the video.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
Xeoncross 10y ago
My experience is sheep are fear driven and goats are lust driven. As a heard, sheep easily panic and run while goats will knock electric fence down to get at food.
- merpnderp 10y ago
  I had a goat that would crawl on her side under an electric, wiggling an inch at a time, bellowing every time the fence would shock her, but determined to get at the same grass on the other side of the fence that was on her side.
wiradikusuma 10y ago
(Spoiler alert!) Reminds me of Zootopia :)
triplesec 10y ago
The sheep that I know are very friendly. The flock is now about 9, having been about 16 a couple of years ago. My stepsister loves them and introduced me to them. If you walk quietly and gently into the field, and kneel and look unthreatening, they will comms to you. Some are friendlier than others, some too shy. But some will come over and get petted like a lovely soft dog. Beware, some will even try to kiss you!
- hornbaker 10y ago
  So that's how it starts.
aerovistae 10y ago
Well, regardless, if one of my sheep walks to the end of a 20 foot fence and around it to the other side, then wants to come back when I wave a bucket of grain at it, it stares at me through the fence in utter consternation as to how it can pass by this impossible barrier, then starts pacing back and forth anxiously as though lamenting its misfortune at being caught in such a complex trap.
failrate 10y ago
I grew up on a sheep farm. I disagree with this article. I found them to be almost pathologically fatalistic and idiotic. Perhaps there's something to be said about domestication having a negative cognitive effect, or inbreeding, or some other factor. But these animals were not intelligent.
- 6stringmerc 10y ago
  Heck, I've done substitute teaching in a relatively affluent suburb of Austin, Texas and I find there are some really dim human creatures amongst us. Factors you noted all potentially relevant. It's frustrating to hear somebody say "Oh just reason with them!" when sometimes a certain contingent of 14 year olds are kind of lacking whip cracking in the bigger picture. Tenacious is good. Stubborn is not.
  - triplesec 10y ago
    That goes for a large proportion of adults in such places, by all available evidence, such as electoral results
ddmma 10y ago
there is a famous romanian legend called Mioritza where sheeps can even talk to the their master. Quite astonishing creatures
syoc 10y ago
May experience is that the sheep most farmers have are quite stupid. I have grown up owning huskies and taken said huskies on trips on mountains where sheep roam free. I have been struggling to hold back a husky literally meters away from sheep before. They will just look stupidly at the lethal predator and make no attempt to get away. They have been bred to be easier to handle (aka dumb) and would likely have been eaten in the wild.
- robotiamsowhat 10y ago
  stoic in the face of aggression like surface of zen mind no error
NicoJuicy 10y ago
My uncle had a lamb that thought it was a dog, that was serious fun. This comes close: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NmtnB2laX3E&feature=youtu.be https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NmtnB2laX3E&feature=youtu.be
Spooky23 10y ago
They are horribly dumb, especially compared to other farm animals like cows or pigs. I worked in a farm as a teenager. Getting sheep out of trouble was a secondary duty. Highlights: - One managed to hang itself from a large garbage can full of grain when a kid left it open. It literally jumped up to try and get in, and got stuck on rim. - Remember the Disney "chip and dale" episode where they borrowed Donald Duck's sailboat to get nuts from a tree on a little island? 3 sheep tried to do that without a boat and drowned. - Another somehow impaled itself on farm machinery in the middle of a 10 acre field. No idea why.

80 points by r721 10y ago

They may not lack intelligence but they are not fun. They are boring. They keep to themselves. They are very "sheepish". They are not emotional, except horny rams. They don't socialize with humans. They are scared of everything. They are herdish and their herd makes dumb decisions. Very few of them are outliers in behavior/intelligence. I grew up with sheep. I 'm sorry sheep, you are dumb.

hprotagonist 10y ago
goats are way more entertaining. i grew up working on a farm that had about 20 head of sheep, 20 nubian goats for milk, and a handful of pygmies for meat. Goats are fascinating. Sheep largely keep to themselves.
- cidibe 10y ago
  Second that. Goats can be pretty dog-like as far as loving human attention and playing.
- merpnderp 10y ago
  I used to have 7 and just handed off my last two to another hobby farm. Even after 9 years Red my oldest doe, was friendly, curious, and very social. Sundance, her oldest wether, was playful and very dog like. Goats make great pets.
- kwhitefoot 10y ago
  > and a handful of pygmies for meat. Is cannibalism legal where you are?
  - unit91 10y ago
    Pygmy is also a type of goat. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmy_goat https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmy_goat
  - RugnirViking 10y ago
    Is cannibalism legal anywhere at all? I'd be surprised if it was.
telesilla 10y ago
I also grew up around large flocks of sheep and found that when you isolate a young lamb and socialize it: lots of fun. Socialized lambs will recognize human friends and will respond to a given name and hang around and play. But after a year or two, after any time spent back with the flock, they forget humans and revert to being one with the herd. Older isolated sheep just get mean and end up being lawnmowers if not mutton. I figured we'd just bred the fun out of them, with a small remaining playfulness coming out while a lamb. I'd be curious to know more about wild sheep.
- B1FF_PSUVM 10y ago
  > being one with the herd Well, thanks to the internet, now we have a choice of herds. Baaaah.
  - louithethrid 10y ago
    There is only one herd- and it is full of gnus.
- jrimclean 10y ago
  Growing up an a hobby farm with 20-40 (depending on the time of year), this is my experience too. Lambs are playful and full of spunk, but as they grow older they quickly become full-time grazing machines. Rams are just vicious.
  - dankohn1 10y ago
    Classic HN here that no matter how obscure the topic, we have posts from 3 different people with real world experience.
    - sillysaurus3 10y ago
      My favorite was the person who happened to be burning a boat for fuel when it was being debated whether a crew could survive a shipwreck for years by using the ship as a fuel source. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10803552 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10803552
stinos 10y ago
I 'm sorry sheep, you are dumb I don't own sheep but did spend some time with them and came to the same conclusion. However I also don't think that research is incorrect. As such I am assuming the missing link is the learning part: is it possible they are capable enough but being in a herd suppresses this / has no use for it so it doesn't come out? Due to lack of stimulants, lack of apparent need to learn something?
_rpd 10y ago
I am a sheep owner. I like sheep. However, sheep are, in fact, the dumbest mammal I have ever encountered.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

TulliusCicero 10y ago

> found that they can recognise and remember at least 50 individual faces for more than 2 years. That is longer than many humans. What? I was under the impression that humans could generally remember long-term hundreds of faces, if not thousands. You may not always be able to remember everyone's name, but you remember their face. The idea of someone not being able to remember even fifty individual faces sounds bizarre to me, unless we're talking about a person with a serious mental handicap.

mod 10y ago
Particularly when you haven't seen countless thousands of other faces in the meantime. As an anecdote, I used to work with large groups of children (summer camps & sports programs). I would allow myself one day to learn all of the new kids' names, which was > 50 at the start of any new thing. I don't remember all of their names now, after 10-15 years, but I assure you that you could give me a lineup (of them at the time) and I could pick out the kids I worked with. Hundreds and hundreds of them. I wouldn't have a 100% success rate, no doubt, but I think a very good one.
Coincoin 10y ago
Typical science articles bullshit we see around all the time. The funny thing is the author is technically not lying because I am sure we could find "many", that is, at least 2, humans who can't recognize more than 50 faces.

Animats 10y ago

Domestic sheep have been bred to produce more wool, not jump fences, and to be herd-bound and submissive. That started millennia ago.[1] Unless you find wild sheep, you're not seeing the normal animal; you're seeing a human-created meat and wool machine. [1] http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/sheep/ http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/sheep/

nickpsecurity 10y ago
That's a great point we should never forget with agriculture and livestock. Many of these things are a watered-down form of what's found in nature.

andyjohnson0 10y ago

Twenty plus years ago I was hiking on the North York Moors in England, which is an area where herds of sheep live wild on the moorland for most of the year. I came to a cattle grid (cattle guard in the US [1]) and a group of sheep were crowded at one side, obviously wanting to cross but unable to do so. Lots of baaaing and jostling. Then one of the sheep did an amazing thing: it lay down and rolled it's body over the cattle grid, then stood at the other side staring at the rest of the group. They didn't follow, and eventually drifted away. I've never seen or heard of that happening before or since. I sometimes wonder if that sheep was some kind of once-in-a-generation freak: a kind of Leonardo da Vinci outlier. I like sheep. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_grid https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_grid

tokenizerrr 10y ago
From the article you linked: > While these barriers are usually effective for cattle,[23] they can fail due to ingenious animals. Sheep searching for food have been known to roll over grids, jump across them, step carefully into the spaces[24] or run along the side of grids as wide as 8 feet (2.4 m). [24] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rIbZWblPaA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rIbZWblPaA
- tnorthcutt 10y ago
  The very next video youtube suggested shows two sheep, surrounded by lush green fields, climbing onto steep, wet rocks on a hillside in an attempt to reach some grass in the middle of the rocks. One of the sheep falls, presumably to its death or at least to a significant injury. They may be clever, but they seem... dumb. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m2HJpGtv70 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m2HJpGtv70
  - oh_sigh 10y ago
    To be fair, one was a lamb which was just following the adult, and was still alive and healthy by the end of the video.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]

Xeoncross 10y ago

My experience is sheep are fear driven and goats are lust driven. As a heard, sheep easily panic and run while goats will knock electric fence down to get at food.

merpnderp 10y ago
I had a goat that would crawl on her side under an electric, wiggling an inch at a time, bellowing every time the fence would shock her, but determined to get at the same grass on the other side of the fence that was on her side.

wiradikusuma 10y ago

(Spoiler alert!) Reminds me of Zootopia :)

triplesec 10y ago

The sheep that I know are very friendly. The flock is now about 9, having been about 16 a couple of years ago. My stepsister loves them and introduced me to them. If you walk quietly and gently into the field, and kneel and look unthreatening, they will comms to you. Some are friendlier than others, some too shy. But some will come over and get petted like a lovely soft dog. Beware, some will even try to kiss you!

hornbaker 10y ago
So that's how it starts.

aerovistae 10y ago

Well, regardless, if one of my sheep walks to the end of a 20 foot fence and around it to the other side, then wants to come back when I wave a bucket of grain at it, it stares at me through the fence in utter consternation as to how it can pass by this impossible barrier, then starts pacing back and forth anxiously as though lamenting its misfortune at being caught in such a complex trap.

failrate 10y ago

I grew up on a sheep farm. I disagree with this article. I found them to be almost pathologically fatalistic and idiotic. Perhaps there's something to be said about domestication having a negative cognitive effect, or inbreeding, or some other factor. But these animals were not intelligent.

6stringmerc 10y ago
Heck, I've done substitute teaching in a relatively affluent suburb of Austin, Texas and I find there are some really dim human creatures amongst us. Factors you noted all potentially relevant. It's frustrating to hear somebody say "Oh just reason with them!" when sometimes a certain contingent of 14 year olds are kind of lacking whip cracking in the bigger picture. Tenacious is good. Stubborn is not.
- triplesec 10y ago
  That goes for a large proportion of adults in such places, by all available evidence, such as electoral results

ddmma 10y ago

there is a famous romanian legend called Mioritza where sheeps can even talk to the their master. Quite astonishing creatures

syoc 10y ago

May experience is that the sheep most farmers have are quite stupid. I have grown up owning huskies and taken said huskies on trips on mountains where sheep roam free. I have been struggling to hold back a husky literally meters away from sheep before. They will just look stupidly at the lethal predator and make no attempt to get away. They have been bred to be easier to handle (aka dumb) and would likely have been eaten in the wild.

robotiamsowhat 10y ago
stoic in the face of aggression like surface of zen mind no error

NicoJuicy 10y ago

My uncle had a lamb that thought it was a dog, that was serious fun. This comes close: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NmtnB2laX3E&feature=youtu.be https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NmtnB2laX3E&feature=youtu.be

Spooky23 10y ago

They are horribly dumb, especially compared to other farm animals like cows or pigs. I worked in a farm as a teenager. Getting sheep out of trouble was a secondary duty. Highlights: - One managed to hang itself from a large garbage can full of grain when a kid left it open. It literally jumped up to try and get in, and got stuck on rim. - Remember the Disney "chip and dale" episode where they borrowed Donald Duck's sailboat to get nuts from a tree on a little island? 3 sheep tried to do that without a boat and drowned. - Another somehow impaled itself on farm machinery in the middle of a 10 acre field. No idea why.