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I don't understand why the Carbon Price Floor was a 'poorly designed policy'. From your description, it had exactly the intended effect - it reduced carbon emi

by MarkMc 10y ago

I don't understand why the Carbon Price Floor was a 'poorly designed policy'. From your description, it had exactly the intended effect - it reduced carbon emissions. That coal was pushed out so early might not have been foreseen, but why does that matter?

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inopinatus 10y ago
I read that as the GP suggesting that the ETS was the 'poorly designed policy'.
Ensorceled 10y ago
It's poorly designed because there is no incentive in the policy to continue reducing global warming. The problem isn't solved yet. It's also poorly designed, for the UK, in that UK power generation just bought the unused credits from other EU nations and really didn't reduce their coal usage.
curun1r 10y ago
Where does the UK get its natural gas? If it's like most of Europe, it's now dependant on Russia for that. And pipeline politics is a huge driver of the situation in Syria and the refugee crisis. And if reports are to believed, Russia's meddling is behind Brexit, Trump and the wave of xenophobic populism that's sweeping the world at the moment. I'm not saying that coal is better or even a necessary evil, but we shouldn't pretend that natural gas is some kumbaya solution to pollution and climate change. Even without the controversy over fracking, natural gas has consequences that may be even worse than the effects of coal.
- to3m 10y ago
  But the UK isn't like most of Europe, as it has control of a fairly productive sector of the North Sea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_oil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_oil This was one of the drivers behind a switch to gas for electricity generation in the first place: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dash_for_Gas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dash_for_Gas The North Sea has seen better days but modern production levels are still measurable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_natural_gas_production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_natural_g... It looks like only about 13% of the UK's gas comes from Russia: https://www.britishgas.co.uk/the-source/our-world-of-energy/energys-grand-journey/where-does-uk-gas-come-from https://www.britishgas.co.uk/the-source/our-world-of-energy/...
- malza 10y ago
  > And if reports are to believed, Russia's meddling is behind Brexit... D'oh. There was me thinking I made the decision on my own, I even researched loads of topics by buying books and stuff, only to find out on HN that those meddling Ruskies did it all along. I will agree with you on pipelines though.
  - russian_agent 10y ago
    The EU also proposed (and implemented?) its own online propaganda army long before Brexit, so the Russians might not be the only ones to interfere in public opinion. "In order to reverse the perception that 'Europe is the problem', we need to communicate that the answer to existing challenges... is 'more Europe' not 'less Europe'."[1] [1] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/9845442/EU-to-set-up-euro-election-troll-patrol-to-tackle-Eurosceptic-surge.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/9845442/...
    - zigzigzag 10y ago
      lol, username checks out. The EU uses propaganda so routinely people don't even notice it anymore. Like how federalists always refer to the EU as "Europe" even though Europe is a continent with several non-EU countries in it, and the EU is a political arrangement. It's a subtle word trick but it plants the feeling of permanence in people's minds. Also, the way it charges countries huge sums of money to trade with it tariff free and then dishes out the money to projects ... but only on the condition that they erect giant signs with the EU flag and saying the EU paid for it. The EU of course, produces nothing itself, it's the countries that paid for it, but putting the actual flags of the nations that paid might lead to people feeling loyalty to actual European countries instead of the EU institutions. And then there is the actual propaganda. Including, ironically, propaganda targeted at Russia: http://collections.internetmemory.org/haeu/content/20160313172652/http://eeas.europa.eu/top_stories/2015/261115_stratcom-east_qanda_en.htm http://collections.internetmemory.org/haeu/content/201603131... http://collections.internetmemory.org/haeu/content/20160313172652/http://eeas.europa.eu/ru/index_ru.htm http://collections.internetmemory.org/haeu/content/201603131...
- deleted 10y ago
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- melling 10y ago
  "May be worse" You make it sound like the negative effects are all political, and you can't really quantify them. As far as air-quality, isn't natural gas much better than coal?
- shitgoose 10y ago
  Russia is behind Brexit? You are breaking new ground here, care to provide a reference? Also, it is good to know that Russia is behind Orban, Erdogan too.
  - curun1r 10y ago
    If you Google 'Russia Brexit' you'll get a ton of hits. Here's one: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/russian-interference-brexit-highly-probable-referendum-hacking-putin-a7472706.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/russian-interf...
    - shitgoose 10y ago
      "'highly probable' Russia interfered with Brexit" "the huge flows of migrants into Europe had been deliberately encouraged by Russia to destabilise the EU" sigh... Put it another way - is there any hardship in this world that was not induced by Russia? This is not even funny anymore, this is sad. Brexit is work of Russkies. Are you guys are completely impotent and incapable of making your own decisions?
- ptaipale 10y ago
  UK is not dependent on Russian gas. There's some, but not dominant. https://www.britishgas.co.uk/the-source/our-world-of-energy/energys-grand-journey/where-does-uk-gas-come-from https://www.britishgas.co.uk/the-source/our-world-of-energy/... - 45 % is from UK production - 17 % is from LNG tankers (much of that is from Middle East) - 38 % is from European pipelines, of which 35 % is from Russia. In other words, Russian supply is about 13 %. The NY Times article manages to ignore one significant source of electric power, though: about 20 % of British electricity is nuclear. That is not mentioned at all, it just speaks of wind and solar. This is a typical narrative by journalists and in my view it diminishes the credibility of media.

by MarkMc 10y ago

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inopinatus 10y ago

I read that as the GP suggesting that the ETS was the 'poorly designed policy'.

Ensorceled 10y ago

It's poorly designed because there is no incentive in the policy to continue reducing global warming. The problem isn't solved yet. It's also poorly designed, for the UK, in that UK power generation just bought the unused credits from other EU nations and really didn't reduce their coal usage.

curun1r 10y ago

Where does the UK get its natural gas? If it's like most of Europe, it's now dependant on Russia for that. And pipeline politics is a huge driver of the situation in Syria and the refugee crisis. And if reports are to believed, Russia's meddling is behind Brexit, Trump and the wave of xenophobic populism that's sweeping the world at the moment. I'm not saying that coal is better or even a necessary evil, but we shouldn't pretend that natural gas is some kumbaya solution to pollution and climate change. Even without the controversy over fracking, natural gas has consequences that may be even worse than the effects of coal.

to3m 10y ago
But the UK isn't like most of Europe, as it has control of a fairly productive sector of the North Sea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_oil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_oil This was one of the drivers behind a switch to gas for electricity generation in the first place: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dash_for_Gas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dash_for_Gas The North Sea has seen better days but modern production levels are still measurable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_natural_gas_production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_natural_g... It looks like only about 13% of the UK's gas comes from Russia: https://www.britishgas.co.uk/the-source/our-world-of-energy/energys-grand-journey/where-does-uk-gas-come-from https://www.britishgas.co.uk/the-source/our-world-of-energy/...
malza 10y ago
> And if reports are to believed, Russia's meddling is behind Brexit... D'oh. There was me thinking I made the decision on my own, I even researched loads of topics by buying books and stuff, only to find out on HN that those meddling Ruskies did it all along. I will agree with you on pipelines though.
- russian_agent 10y ago
  The EU also proposed (and implemented?) its own online propaganda army long before Brexit, so the Russians might not be the only ones to interfere in public opinion. "In order to reverse the perception that 'Europe is the problem', we need to communicate that the answer to existing challenges... is 'more Europe' not 'less Europe'."[1] [1] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/9845442/EU-to-set-up-euro-election-troll-patrol-to-tackle-Eurosceptic-surge.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/9845442/...
  - zigzigzag 10y ago
    lol, username checks out. The EU uses propaganda so routinely people don't even notice it anymore. Like how federalists always refer to the EU as "Europe" even though Europe is a continent with several non-EU countries in it, and the EU is a political arrangement. It's a subtle word trick but it plants the feeling of permanence in people's minds. Also, the way it charges countries huge sums of money to trade with it tariff free and then dishes out the money to projects ... but only on the condition that they erect giant signs with the EU flag and saying the EU paid for it. The EU of course, produces nothing itself, it's the countries that paid for it, but putting the actual flags of the nations that paid might lead to people feeling loyalty to actual European countries instead of the EU institutions. And then there is the actual propaganda. Including, ironically, propaganda targeted at Russia: http://collections.internetmemory.org/haeu/content/20160313172652/http://eeas.europa.eu/top_stories/2015/261115_stratcom-east_qanda_en.htm http://collections.internetmemory.org/haeu/content/201603131... http://collections.internetmemory.org/haeu/content/20160313172652/http://eeas.europa.eu/ru/index_ru.htm http://collections.internetmemory.org/haeu/content/201603131...
deleted 10y ago
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melling 10y ago
"May be worse" You make it sound like the negative effects are all political, and you can't really quantify them. As far as air-quality, isn't natural gas much better than coal?
shitgoose 10y ago
Russia is behind Brexit? You are breaking new ground here, care to provide a reference? Also, it is good to know that Russia is behind Orban, Erdogan too.
- curun1r 10y ago
  If you Google 'Russia Brexit' you'll get a ton of hits. Here's one: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/russian-interference-brexit-highly-probable-referendum-hacking-putin-a7472706.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/russian-interf...
  - shitgoose 10y ago
    "'highly probable' Russia interfered with Brexit" "the huge flows of migrants into Europe had been deliberately encouraged by Russia to destabilise the EU" sigh... Put it another way - is there any hardship in this world that was not induced by Russia? This is not even funny anymore, this is sad. Brexit is work of Russkies. Are you guys are completely impotent and incapable of making your own decisions?
ptaipale 10y ago
UK is not dependent on Russian gas. There's some, but not dominant. https://www.britishgas.co.uk/the-source/our-world-of-energy/energys-grand-journey/where-does-uk-gas-come-from https://www.britishgas.co.uk/the-source/our-world-of-energy/... - 45 % is from UK production - 17 % is from LNG tankers (much of that is from Middle East) - 38 % is from European pipelines, of which 35 % is from Russia. In other words, Russian supply is about 13 %. The NY Times article manages to ignore one significant source of electric power, though: about 20 % of British electricity is nuclear. That is not mentioned at all, it just speaks of wind and solar. This is a typical narrative by journalists and in my view it diminishes the credibility of media.