5 ms·

>> but a lot cheaper because their labor is a lot cheaper. Why is that? (genuinely curious here.) Do they employ younger people with hopes an IPO?

salesguy222 10y ago
at first glance, yes i think this is the case, especially people straight out of college a similar trend happened with dell, hp, oracls and ibm- gone are the older, whiter males making over 100k base to sell to corporations as "trusted advisors" in are the thousands of young kids fresh out of college dialing for dollars and making 45k
- heartbreak 10y ago
  > whiter males What does that have to do with sales aptitude?
  - cryptarch 10y ago
    I think there's a lot of cultural bias favouring older white males in situations where authority and trustworthiness is important.
  - acdha 10y ago
    Depends on the audience but the senior management at a lot of places is often disproportionately older white men of a certain background (MBA from one of a few schools, former frat / current country club member, etc.). This is relevant to consulting and sales because a lot of clients like to think someone like them is in charge. I've known a few salesmen who were quite open about their role as the senior guy on the contract was literally to take the client it for a round of golf and reassure them that the 25 year-olds weren't going to suggest too much change too quickly. Sharing the same cultural background, wearing a good suit, etc. gave them instant credibility on that front so they could spend lunch talking about which colleges their kids/grandkids were looking at, which pro golf/baseball/football team was going to do well, etc. and get the deal because the client now felt confident that they'd get what they asked for.
    - corin_ 10y ago
      It does depend on the audience, and really isn't unique to white golf-playing males. I've seen plenty of that sort of client management in a few types of work, ranging from suits and golf to hoodies and pubs, black tie events to nightclubs.
      - acdha 10y ago
        Oh, definitely – I just mentioned that because there was an era where that particular one was just a gravy train for salespeople targeting the Fortune 500, government agencies, etc. This is definitely a generational thing and I'm sure there's more diversification as the Boomer executives retire. There's must be some salesperson cleaning up with craft beers and SXSW or Tour de France trips now.
  - salesguy222 10y ago
    It has nothing to do with sales attitude and everything to do with empirical evidence of who large corporations (and their employees) decided to hire for these jobs.
user5994461 10y ago
They are allegedly better at exploiting young people. They've got a better image, they get graduates for cheaper, oversell the future IPO and make them work longer hours. It's no secret that Palantir is a sweat shop filled with "Forward Deployed Engineer", a bullshit title to make people feel important and impress graduates (it does work!). The sad reality of consulting shop: You are sent from client to client anywhere anytime (the "forward deployed"). Your company takes a big cut on your salary, and they benefit by paying you less while charging more for you.
- snarf 10y ago
  Trilogy Software in the late 90's had the exact same model with cultish hype aimed at graduating students at top universities who mostly didn't know any better and bought into the hype.
  - TuringNYC 10y ago
    I was at a client site that used Trilogy (an insurance company using their commissions engine.) One day, i'm told that Trilogy HR [unintentionally] implemented an exponential bonus scheme for referral hires. $1000 for one referral, $2000 for two, $4000 for three, and so on. The Trilogy consultants at our client site were laughing at the matter and joking about pooling together all the referrals so they could get $1000 * 2^10 in referral bonuses. Needless to say the bonus scheme was revised.
  - ryanmarsh 10y ago
    Oh Jesus. The shenanigans that went down at Trilogy. The stories and forwarded emails that went around Austin I still talk about. The guy who replied all seeking clarification on what exactly a "serious" relationship was (regarding who could be your plus one in the company retreat). He got quite graphic. The guy who got hired, showed up one day to do HR paperwork and got paid for 3 months before anyone figured out he never showed up again.
Anderkent 10y ago
Because they have a product base that lets them leverage a smaller amount of people into a better end result for a deployment. Less labour required = lower labour cost. At least in the UK, FDE's are definitely not underpaid; I don't know how the pay compares in the SV. Disclamer: I work for Palantir
- user5994461 10y ago
  Numbers? Tip: When evaluating a work, adjust the compensation for hours worked and don't be tricked by the shares that will never IPO.
  - Anderkent 10y ago
    Average software engineer salary in London is ~42k (https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/london-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,6_IM1035_KO7,24.htm https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/london-software-enginee...). Average FDE base salary at palantir london is 76k (https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salary/Palantir-Technologies-Forward-Deployed-Engineer-London-Salaries-EJI_IE236375.0,21_KO22,47_IL.48,54_IM1035.htm https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salary/Palantir-Technologies-For...). Average 'consultant' at IBM in london is 42k (https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salary/IBM-Consultant-London-Salaries-EJI_IE354.0,3_KO4,14_IL.15,21_IM1035.htm https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salary/IBM-Consultant-London-Sal...). This is not what an 'underpaying sweat shop' looks like. The hours are a red herring. Sure, there's people who work very long hours, because they have nothing else to do. But in 2 years as an FDE at Palantir I averaged maybe 50h a week, and only remember one crunch week in all two years where I chose to work >80h (i.e. work on the weekend).
    - user5994461 10y ago
      You might not realize but 50 hours average is a lot. The 42k figure is very low. That's likely for all IT roles including tech support and help desk. If you are good enough to enter Palantir (they have some standards despite the bad PR), you are good enough to enter a real tech company. Note that if you are a consultant going left and right to a new client regularly, you should make a comparison against being an independent contractor too.

salesguy222 10y ago

at first glance, yes i think this is the case, especially people straight out of college a similar trend happened with dell, hp, oracls and ibm- gone are the older, whiter males making over 100k base to sell to corporations as "trusted advisors" in are the thousands of young kids fresh out of college dialing for dollars and making 45k

heartbreak 10y ago
> whiter males What does that have to do with sales aptitude?
- cryptarch 10y ago
  I think there's a lot of cultural bias favouring older white males in situations where authority and trustworthiness is important.
- acdha 10y ago
  Depends on the audience but the senior management at a lot of places is often disproportionately older white men of a certain background (MBA from one of a few schools, former frat / current country club member, etc.). This is relevant to consulting and sales because a lot of clients like to think someone like them is in charge. I've known a few salesmen who were quite open about their role as the senior guy on the contract was literally to take the client it for a round of golf and reassure them that the 25 year-olds weren't going to suggest too much change too quickly. Sharing the same cultural background, wearing a good suit, etc. gave them instant credibility on that front so they could spend lunch talking about which colleges their kids/grandkids were looking at, which pro golf/baseball/football team was going to do well, etc. and get the deal because the client now felt confident that they'd get what they asked for.
  - corin_ 10y ago
    It does depend on the audience, and really isn't unique to white golf-playing males. I've seen plenty of that sort of client management in a few types of work, ranging from suits and golf to hoodies and pubs, black tie events to nightclubs.
    - acdha 10y ago
      Oh, definitely – I just mentioned that because there was an era where that particular one was just a gravy train for salespeople targeting the Fortune 500, government agencies, etc. This is definitely a generational thing and I'm sure there's more diversification as the Boomer executives retire. There's must be some salesperson cleaning up with craft beers and SXSW or Tour de France trips now.
- salesguy222 10y ago
  It has nothing to do with sales attitude and everything to do with empirical evidence of who large corporations (and their employees) decided to hire for these jobs.

user5994461 10y ago

They are allegedly better at exploiting young people. They've got a better image, they get graduates for cheaper, oversell the future IPO and make them work longer hours. It's no secret that Palantir is a sweat shop filled with "Forward Deployed Engineer", a bullshit title to make people feel important and impress graduates (it does work!). The sad reality of consulting shop: You are sent from client to client anywhere anytime (the "forward deployed"). Your company takes a big cut on your salary, and they benefit by paying you less while charging more for you.

snarf 10y ago
Trilogy Software in the late 90's had the exact same model with cultish hype aimed at graduating students at top universities who mostly didn't know any better and bought into the hype.
- TuringNYC 10y ago
  I was at a client site that used Trilogy (an insurance company using their commissions engine.) One day, i'm told that Trilogy HR [unintentionally] implemented an exponential bonus scheme for referral hires. $1000 for one referral, $2000 for two, $4000 for three, and so on. The Trilogy consultants at our client site were laughing at the matter and joking about pooling together all the referrals so they could get $1000 * 2^10 in referral bonuses. Needless to say the bonus scheme was revised.
- ryanmarsh 10y ago
  Oh Jesus. The shenanigans that went down at Trilogy. The stories and forwarded emails that went around Austin I still talk about. The guy who replied all seeking clarification on what exactly a "serious" relationship was (regarding who could be your plus one in the company retreat). He got quite graphic. The guy who got hired, showed up one day to do HR paperwork and got paid for 3 months before anyone figured out he never showed up again.

Anderkent 10y ago

Because they have a product base that lets them leverage a smaller amount of people into a better end result for a deployment. Less labour required = lower labour cost. At least in the UK, FDE's are definitely not underpaid; I don't know how the pay compares in the SV. Disclamer: I work for Palantir

user5994461 10y ago
Numbers? Tip: When evaluating a work, adjust the compensation for hours worked and don't be tricked by the shares that will never IPO.
- Anderkent 10y ago
  Average software engineer salary in London is ~42k (https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/london-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,6_IM1035_KO7,24.htm https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/london-software-enginee...). Average FDE base salary at palantir london is 76k (https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salary/Palantir-Technologies-Forward-Deployed-Engineer-London-Salaries-EJI_IE236375.0,21_KO22,47_IL.48,54_IM1035.htm https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salary/Palantir-Technologies-For...). Average 'consultant' at IBM in london is 42k (https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salary/IBM-Consultant-London-Salaries-EJI_IE354.0,3_KO4,14_IL.15,21_IM1035.htm https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salary/IBM-Consultant-London-Sal...). This is not what an 'underpaying sweat shop' looks like. The hours are a red herring. Sure, there's people who work very long hours, because they have nothing else to do. But in 2 years as an FDE at Palantir I averaged maybe 50h a week, and only remember one crunch week in all two years where I chose to work >80h (i.e. work on the weekend).
  - user5994461 10y ago
    You might not realize but 50 hours average is a lot. The 42k figure is very low. That's likely for all IT roles including tech support and help desk. If you are good enough to enter Palantir (they have some standards despite the bad PR), you are good enough to enter a real tech company. Note that if you are a consultant going left and right to a new client regularly, you should make a comparison against being an independent contractor too.