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> migrant workers who are allowed in to the country under significantly restricted rights How is this anything other than a straightforward win/win trade? The

by sho 10y ago

> migrant workers who are allowed in to the country under significantly restricted rights How is this anything other than a straightforward win/win trade? The country gets work done for cheaper than hiring locals; the migrant workers make more than they could in their home countries. Mistreatment is of course illegal and they are in general free to leave at any time. Exactly how is this bad, unless you are against trade itself? > wealth runs deep between generations, and the society is significantly stratified Like every other country on earth, you mean? Except there's no real old money, because the country was only founded in the 1960s. > looking the other way on Singapore's fascist dictatorship Now you're just talking nonsense. Yeah, the fascist dictatorship with the single best passport on earth, that millions of people move to for work. Uh-huh. Your opinions are so wilfully and aggressively ignorant that I actually wonder if you're trolling.

nickpsecurity 10y ago
"How is this anything other than a straightforward win/win trade? The country gets work done for cheaper than hiring locals; the migrant workers make more than they could in their home countries." You could say the same thing about impoverished minorities in the U.S. whose ancestors came from poor countries. It would still be racism to pay them or allow them less due to race. It's more amusing given the Singaporeans that show up in comments talking about how racist America is. Turns out Singapore is pretty racist and classist, too.
- sho 10y ago
  I don't understand how you are drawing these conclusions. I don't see any similarity at all to U.S. race relations. If country A has a lot of money but a labour shortage, and country B is poor but has a labour excess, then it is of mutual benefit for country A to hire people from country B to perform needed labour. Country B's workers are not being paid less because of their race, but because they come from a relatively poorer country. The workers come to do a job in which they will be paid more (much more) than comparable work at home, they do it, they get paid, the work gets done, everyone is happy, they go home. How is this racist, or even generally bad? This basic economic principle is also, of course, the reason why companies locate manufacturing in countries with large available labour pools and lower comparative wages. So is Apple racist for manufacturing in China?
  - nickpsecurity 10y ago
    "Country B's workers are not being paid less because of their race, but because they come from a relatively poorer country." Then the discrimination is based on source country instead of race. Either way, it's systematic discrimination. Singapore could just as easily pay based on position and prior experience across the board. Immigrants could move up in pay over time. Those there a certain amount of time could participate in the political process. And so on. Whereas the current situation is pure exploitation that contradicts some of the morality claims I see in discussions on Singapore. Especially how some in the comments will say they're pro immigrants, not racists, etc.
    - sho 10y ago
      I feel like you are not listening. These are not "immigrants", they are temporary foreign labourers who are flown in to do a job, do it, and leave. It is not "discrimination" that they are paid less - the fact that they are cheaper is the only conceivable reason for hiring them in the first place. I see you're a security consultant. Here's a thought experiment for you. Say you have trouble getting work back home, but you hear that in Switzerland they have a shortage of security consultants and the going rate is $200/hr. You ring up a company there and offer to work - they say well your French isn't quite up to scratch so we can only offer you $100/hr. You say sure, they say OK here's a 6 month contract, you fly in, do the work, and fly out. You are paid less than the natives. You are there because you can be paid less. You are benefiting from the trade, and so is Switzerland. You do not get to vote in Swiss elections. Are you being immorally exploited by racist discriminating Swiss? Of course not. It is a win/win situation and a fundamental component of foreign trade. Economically, wealth has been created. Your home country is better off to the tune of $X when you bring home your fat stack of euros. Switzerland is happy too because it thinks it gained $2X worth of work. The world is better off because you were working productively instead of browsing reddit waiting for the phone to ring. This is why trade is good. Your labour was able to move from where it was not necessary, to where it was. The foreign workers in Singapore are not being paid $100/hr, of course, but otherwise the situation is exactly the same. Does that make sense?
      - 10y ago
contingencies 10y ago
How is this anything other than a straightforward win/win trade? This statement may be shocking to you but people have rights and society has qualitative properties that cannot be purchased for money. 'Trade' is not the same as people's lives. If you treat people as disposable economic tools, you begin to create a culture and climate of facetious social engagement, private insecurity and fear... ie. your "win/win" becomes "lose/lose" very quickly. there's no real old money LKY and cronies laundered huge amounts of money from the pillaging of Indonesia, Malaysia and Myanmar's natural resources and established themselves as the highest paid politicians in the world. Much of the wealthy class in Singapore still owns significant business interests in those countries, such as vast palm oil plantations on recently deforested land. Meanwhile, the 'average' citizen is not doing so well, and the significant migrant labour underclass suffers daily out of economic desperation. These realities clearly represent dynastic, multi-generational wealth transfer and a stratified society. Basically, Singapore is a lot like Shanghai in conception ... rich people fled there during a period of relative instability then doubled down on exploiting regional postwar opportunities with the advantage of significant stores of capital. the single best passport on earth Gee, no rose-colored glasses there!
- sho 10y ago
  > Gee, no rose-colored glasses there! Simple fact actually. https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php As for the rest of your wild claims - if you had any evidence at all for any of it, your sensational exposé would probably topple the singapore government. Please, let me know before your book comes out so I can short some stocks!

by sho 10y ago

nickpsecurity 10y ago

"How is this anything other than a straightforward win/win trade? The country gets work done for cheaper than hiring locals; the migrant workers make more than they could in their home countries." You could say the same thing about impoverished minorities in the U.S. whose ancestors came from poor countries. It would still be racism to pay them or allow them less due to race. It's more amusing given the Singaporeans that show up in comments talking about how racist America is. Turns out Singapore is pretty racist and classist, too.

sho 10y ago
I don't understand how you are drawing these conclusions. I don't see any similarity at all to U.S. race relations. If country A has a lot of money but a labour shortage, and country B is poor but has a labour excess, then it is of mutual benefit for country A to hire people from country B to perform needed labour. Country B's workers are not being paid less because of their race, but because they come from a relatively poorer country. The workers come to do a job in which they will be paid more (much more) than comparable work at home, they do it, they get paid, the work gets done, everyone is happy, they go home. How is this racist, or even generally bad? This basic economic principle is also, of course, the reason why companies locate manufacturing in countries with large available labour pools and lower comparative wages. So is Apple racist for manufacturing in China?
- nickpsecurity 10y ago
  "Country B's workers are not being paid less because of their race, but because they come from a relatively poorer country." Then the discrimination is based on source country instead of race. Either way, it's systematic discrimination. Singapore could just as easily pay based on position and prior experience across the board. Immigrants could move up in pay over time. Those there a certain amount of time could participate in the political process. And so on. Whereas the current situation is pure exploitation that contradicts some of the morality claims I see in discussions on Singapore. Especially how some in the comments will say they're pro immigrants, not racists, etc.
  - sho 10y ago
    I feel like you are not listening. These are not "immigrants", they are temporary foreign labourers who are flown in to do a job, do it, and leave. It is not "discrimination" that they are paid less - the fact that they are cheaper is the only conceivable reason for hiring them in the first place. I see you're a security consultant. Here's a thought experiment for you. Say you have trouble getting work back home, but you hear that in Switzerland they have a shortage of security consultants and the going rate is $200/hr. You ring up a company there and offer to work - they say well your French isn't quite up to scratch so we can only offer you $100/hr. You say sure, they say OK here's a 6 month contract, you fly in, do the work, and fly out. You are paid less than the natives. You are there because you can be paid less. You are benefiting from the trade, and so is Switzerland. You do not get to vote in Swiss elections. Are you being immorally exploited by racist discriminating Swiss? Of course not. It is a win/win situation and a fundamental component of foreign trade. Economically, wealth has been created. Your home country is better off to the tune of $X when you bring home your fat stack of euros. Switzerland is happy too because it thinks it gained $2X worth of work. The world is better off because you were working productively instead of browsing reddit waiting for the phone to ring. This is why trade is good. Your labour was able to move from where it was not necessary, to where it was. The foreign workers in Singapore are not being paid $100/hr, of course, but otherwise the situation is exactly the same. Does that make sense?
    - 10y ago

contingencies 10y ago

How is this anything other than a straightforward win/win trade? This statement may be shocking to you but people have rights and society has qualitative properties that cannot be purchased for money. 'Trade' is not the same as people's lives. If you treat people as disposable economic tools, you begin to create a culture and climate of facetious social engagement, private insecurity and fear... ie. your "win/win" becomes "lose/lose" very quickly. there's no real old money LKY and cronies laundered huge amounts of money from the pillaging of Indonesia, Malaysia and Myanmar's natural resources and established themselves as the highest paid politicians in the world. Much of the wealthy class in Singapore still owns significant business interests in those countries, such as vast palm oil plantations on recently deforested land. Meanwhile, the 'average' citizen is not doing so well, and the significant migrant labour underclass suffers daily out of economic desperation. These realities clearly represent dynastic, multi-generational wealth transfer and a stratified society. Basically, Singapore is a lot like Shanghai in conception ... rich people fled there during a period of relative instability then doubled down on exploiting regional postwar opportunities with the advantage of significant stores of capital. the single best passport on earth Gee, no rose-colored glasses there!

sho 10y ago
> Gee, no rose-colored glasses there! Simple fact actually. https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php As for the rest of your wild claims - if you had any evidence at all for any of it, your sensational exposé would probably topple the singapore government. Please, let me know before your book comes out so I can short some stocks!