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He's saying those people need to find a new socially beneficial purpose, and that having a dole keeps their families from starving while they do so. It's a fac

He's saying those people need to find a new socially beneficial purpose, and that having a dole keeps their families from starving while they do so. It's a fact some jobs will become obsolete over time, and those people should be happy that the dole is there to pay for their retraining rather than letting them starve when their craft becomes obsolete. It sucks for them their trade died, but how is it remotely bad the government helps them stay afloat so they can retrain? No one is saying they should just linger doing nothing.

wahern 10y ago
You can tell people what they should do until the cows come home. But they may never come around. Worse, if they have greater voting power than you then _you'll_ be the one dragged kicking and screaming into an inhospitable future. UBI could be great in theory. People _should_ learn how to find purpose in life outside the traditional labor culture. And maybe one day they will. In the meantime we have Donald Trump and Brexit. Neither is the end of the world, but they're strong hints that things can go sideways real quick unless you take political viability seriously.
- Mithaldu 10y ago
  UBI isn't only great in theory, a number of countries are only a finger's breadth away from having implemented it. I live in Germany. There's no way for me to not be under health insurance (working without is actually illegal and the state pays it for unemployed people). If i lose my job the state keeps paying me 70% of my original wage for an amount of time proportional to how long i worked, and after that drops me to a base level i can live on (though possibly i would need to move). The only things i need to do to keep receiving it is to prove i keep applying for jobs by sending them application copies twice a month, and to not reject reasonable job offers the work bureau sends my way. (And yes, people have rejected such and sued and won in court, with no extra cost to them.) And even beyond that, there's a minimum wage, and even a state income offset program to allow people with extraordinary expenses (caring for sick relatives, etc.) to receive money if their income minus said expenses falls under a certain limit, equivalent to people on long term unemployment aid. It's implemented in various different programs, and not in one neat bundle, but in terms of real-politik UBI is already here. Sure, people can still live in poverty even here, but this is not due to a lack of aid, but due to people's own decisions. (Continuing to live in expensive areas, refusing to get aid, etc.)
  - shitgoose 10y ago
    "Sure, people can still live in poverty even here, but this is not due to a lack of aid, but due to people's own decisions." really:)? People still make decisions in Germany after all you have described?
    - Mithaldu 10y ago
      A variety of freedoms and rights are enshrined in the german constitution, and still apply even if you're unemployed. ;) https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_gg/englisch_gg.html#p0020 https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_gg/englisch_gg.h... Note also that all govt aid (except for paying the rent and health insurance, which is done directly) is in actual money, not vouchers. :)
- SomeStupidPoint 10y ago
  You're conflating what I said with other social issues and the Democrats failure of messaging (and slide in to racism/sexism). No one (at least not me) is talking about "find purpose in life outside the traditional labor culture". They should get a job and pay back that tax money! What I'm talking about is my support for the fundamental tenants of capitalism: creative desteuction and repurposing of capital to more efficient uses. That's going to happen in America and jobs are going to go obsolete. Coal is never coming back. I just also believe in social welfare for the same reason I put oil in my car: you need lubrication to keep parts from seizing and the whole thing blowing itself apart. Running an ICE without oil is foolish, and so is running an economy without social welfare. UBI is just a high-grade synthetic that requires less maintenance work to function. (It actually does more than that, as UBI serves to connect the wealth accumulation at the top with the wealth allocation at the bottom, which I would argue makes the entire system have more bang by easying the flow of wealth through the system and continuing to cycle it, which is the mechanism by which capitalism optimizes. In this sense, it's sort of like sustained fusion: you have to take part of the energy output to sustain the reaction driving the output.)
  - wahern 10y ago
    I tend to agree with everything you said (except the slight against Democrats). The only point of departure for me is that I don't think Americans will give up on the dream of bringing back, e.g., coal jobs--basically, the imagined blue collar work life of 50 years ago. I would expect a simple UBI to only increase resentment. American culture, and especially American political culture, is built around the notion of hard work and independence and the relationship between the two. In the context of American culture, UBI is anathema to that notion. No amount of finger wagging and intellectual discourse will change that. Heck, we've known for 30 years that with the economic dislocation caused by globalization America (public and private, state and federal) would need to heavily invest in re-education and work training programs. But we failed miserably even though every single economist and business leader, liberal and conservative, substantially agreed on what had to be done. We not only failed miserably, but large swaths of working class Americans literally resented the efforts. Basically, I am intentionally conflating what you said with other social issues because my point is precisely that they're interdependent. Yes, a UBI is probably necessary to squeeze maximum wealth creation _and_ income equality out of a capitalist system. But because UBI is not tenable we'll have to settle for lesser options. That's called compromise.

wahern 10y ago

You can tell people what they should do until the cows come home. But they may never come around. Worse, if they have greater voting power than you then _you'll_ be the one dragged kicking and screaming into an inhospitable future. UBI could be great in theory. People _should_ learn how to find purpose in life outside the traditional labor culture. And maybe one day they will. In the meantime we have Donald Trump and Brexit. Neither is the end of the world, but they're strong hints that things can go sideways real quick unless you take political viability seriously.

Mithaldu 10y ago
UBI isn't only great in theory, a number of countries are only a finger's breadth away from having implemented it. I live in Germany. There's no way for me to not be under health insurance (working without is actually illegal and the state pays it for unemployed people). If i lose my job the state keeps paying me 70% of my original wage for an amount of time proportional to how long i worked, and after that drops me to a base level i can live on (though possibly i would need to move). The only things i need to do to keep receiving it is to prove i keep applying for jobs by sending them application copies twice a month, and to not reject reasonable job offers the work bureau sends my way. (And yes, people have rejected such and sued and won in court, with no extra cost to them.) And even beyond that, there's a minimum wage, and even a state income offset program to allow people with extraordinary expenses (caring for sick relatives, etc.) to receive money if their income minus said expenses falls under a certain limit, equivalent to people on long term unemployment aid. It's implemented in various different programs, and not in one neat bundle, but in terms of real-politik UBI is already here. Sure, people can still live in poverty even here, but this is not due to a lack of aid, but due to people's own decisions. (Continuing to live in expensive areas, refusing to get aid, etc.)
- shitgoose 10y ago
  "Sure, people can still live in poverty even here, but this is not due to a lack of aid, but due to people's own decisions." really:)? People still make decisions in Germany after all you have described?
  - Mithaldu 10y ago
    A variety of freedoms and rights are enshrined in the german constitution, and still apply even if you're unemployed. ;) https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_gg/englisch_gg.html#p0020 https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_gg/englisch_gg.h... Note also that all govt aid (except for paying the rent and health insurance, which is done directly) is in actual money, not vouchers. :)
SomeStupidPoint 10y ago
You're conflating what I said with other social issues and the Democrats failure of messaging (and slide in to racism/sexism). No one (at least not me) is talking about "find purpose in life outside the traditional labor culture". They should get a job and pay back that tax money! What I'm talking about is my support for the fundamental tenants of capitalism: creative desteuction and repurposing of capital to more efficient uses. That's going to happen in America and jobs are going to go obsolete. Coal is never coming back. I just also believe in social welfare for the same reason I put oil in my car: you need lubrication to keep parts from seizing and the whole thing blowing itself apart. Running an ICE without oil is foolish, and so is running an economy without social welfare. UBI is just a high-grade synthetic that requires less maintenance work to function. (It actually does more than that, as UBI serves to connect the wealth accumulation at the top with the wealth allocation at the bottom, which I would argue makes the entire system have more bang by easying the flow of wealth through the system and continuing to cycle it, which is the mechanism by which capitalism optimizes. In this sense, it's sort of like sustained fusion: you have to take part of the energy output to sustain the reaction driving the output.)
- wahern 10y ago
  I tend to agree with everything you said (except the slight against Democrats). The only point of departure for me is that I don't think Americans will give up on the dream of bringing back, e.g., coal jobs--basically, the imagined blue collar work life of 50 years ago. I would expect a simple UBI to only increase resentment. American culture, and especially American political culture, is built around the notion of hard work and independence and the relationship between the two. In the context of American culture, UBI is anathema to that notion. No amount of finger wagging and intellectual discourse will change that. Heck, we've known for 30 years that with the economic dislocation caused by globalization America (public and private, state and federal) would need to heavily invest in re-education and work training programs. But we failed miserably even though every single economist and business leader, liberal and conservative, substantially agreed on what had to be done. We not only failed miserably, but large swaths of working class Americans literally resented the efforts. Basically, I am intentionally conflating what you said with other social issues because my point is precisely that they're interdependent. Yes, a UBI is probably necessary to squeeze maximum wealth creation _and_ income equality out of a capitalist system. But because UBI is not tenable we'll have to settle for lesser options. That's called compromise.