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When I read your reply I had to laugh and comment. I'm not sure where you got your impression of Singapore, but I think you are truly misinformed. May I ask hav

When I read your reply I had to laugh and comment. I'm not sure where you got your impression of Singapore, but I think you are truly misinformed. May I ask have you ever been to Singapore or you just formed your own opinions of it online? I'm a foreigner living in Singapore for the past 7 or so years and who has gone through the education system here. > significantly racially charged What evidence do you have of this? In your other comment you say they come in with significantly restricted rights -> what does that even mean? First I will say that no one is forcing anybody to come into Singapore. These migrant workers come to Singapore because after weighing the odds, they feel that they can get a better life in Singapore instead of their home countries. > class-entrenched society In Singapore we have National Service. From the richest to the poorest Singaporeans, you serve national service together side-by-side doing the same thing. There is virtually no way of avoiding NS and there are heavy penalties if you do. Even the prime minister's children serve NS. On top of that more than 80% of the population live in government housing flats. And these flats are not cheap, some of the bigger units have sold for more than 1 million dollars. > rose to power on a platform of communism This is the funniest part. The government was so against communism that communist leaders were jailed... and this harsh treatment of communist leaders is a common critic of Singapore. So for you to say they rose to power on the platform of communism just shows the depth of your misunderstanding. Now, Singapore is not perfect. But trust me, its far better than whatever picture you are trying to paint of it.

wahern 9y ago
> > rose to power on a platform of communism > This is the funniest part. Not just funny, but suspiciously racist. Ethnic Chinese in Malaysia and Indonesia were branded as communist all through the 1950s and 1960s and, especially in Indonesia, slaughtered. contingencies sounds like he might be from one of the non-Chinese ethnic groups in SE Asia, or part of such a family. He's not wrong that there's deep racism in Singapore. But it goes both ways. Singapore was ejected from the Malaysian Federation for baldly racist reasons--the ethnic Malays wanted to consolidate political power. The Chinese in that region are like the Jews of Europe--economically successful but culturally still the out group. It creates a ton of resentment for all sides. Also, I've traveled widely throughout the world and turns out _everybody_ is racist. The U.S. is probably one of the least racist countries in the world. Why? Because we _talk_ about it and _admit_ it. In the vast majority of countries people still literally take for granted that ethnic group X is obviously naturally inferior, without making the connection between that belief and the Western concept of racism. In the U.S. even the most rabid racists go through great lengths to justify and explain their prejudice. Believe it or not, that's what progress looks like. People need to stop using racism as a cudgel as it makes it impossible for people to discuss issues of racism. It's like calling somebody Hitler--it just ends the conversation. Ultimately it makes it easier for people to stay in denial about racism.
- Nutomic 9y ago
  You must have never been to Europe. Just look how many black people live in poverty in the US, and how many are shot dead every day.
  - nickpsecurity 9y ago
    "Just look how many black people live in poverty in the US, and how many are shot dead every day" You've been reading a lot of propaganda online. You should look up how many white people, esp rural whites, live in poverty. The poverty problem comes from politics that hurt both races. Then, theres other areas where there's less poverty for both groups. Far as murder, I lived in a "murder capital" where we see a new murder on news every day. You forgot to mention how most of the killers are black, most of their victims are black, and usually from areas/upbringing that are black-controlled. Same in a few others. Funny thing is that the black commentators in media of that city do exactly what you did: mention only the data that more blacks are killed to imply something about non-blacks but don't mention that it's usually black people killing them. You should stop listening to whoever told you that stuff. America is complicated given it's so diverse in politics, economic strategies, race, religion, and so on. Better to look at data from various areas from sources with different biases. Also, listen to comments from people from those areas to get their perspective. Then you'll begin to know something about the country I live in.
    - Gigablah 9y ago
      This is a good comment and equally applies to the original post that started this thread.
    - tacomonstrous 9y ago
      I agree with the general point that the US is less racist than European nations, but ignoring the larger point that the situation of the black American community is very much a product of decades long racist policies to systematically deny them the opportunity to build wealth seems very disingenuous to me.
SamReidHughes 9y ago
Well, you know, originally the PAP was allied with the communists. To the point where it seemed informative to describe them as more likely to be crypto-anti-communist than crypto-communist in an internal British communication, based on personal impressions more than anything.
contingencies 9y ago
I have visited Singapore since the 1980s. The evidence you ask for was already provided before your comment; clearly you didn't bother to read the thread. National Service is fascist, and does not at all imply that the society is classless. In fact, from an anthropological perspective it could be construed that military organization is historically the most caste-ridden of all human societies due to its formal recognition of rank. communism Sorry, I should have said socialism. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Action_Party#Political_developments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Action_Party#Politi... ... Initially adopting a traditionalist Leninist party organisation, together with a vanguard cadre from its labour-leaning faction in 1958, the PAP Executive later expelled the leftist faction, bringing the ideological basis of the party into the centre, and later in the 1960s, moving further to the right.
- yomly 9y ago
  Actually, I'd argue that something like NS, its merits not being discussed here, does do good for social cohesion and cultural integration. When everyone is (relatively) equal and put through something comparatively arduous, it does good things for helping people gel together. It also probably helps instill a common sense of belonging to a nation. I'd attribute at least some of Singapore's ability to cultivate a sense of national identity to things like NS. From what I've seen, Singapore is fairly racist, but in the sense that pretty much everywhere and everyone is racist without very conscious mental effort. That said, Singapore seems pretty well integrated and culturally inclusive considering what a melting pot it is especially on the ground at the interpersonal level. I imagine that as such a small state, these things are easier to micromanage for a government though. Additionally, nothing kills xenophobic sentiment faster than exposure, and as a small city-state, Singapore also provide favorable conditions for that too.
  - ValentineC 9y ago
    > Actually, I'd argue that something like NS, its merits not being discussed here, does do good for social cohesion and cultural integration. > When everyone is (relatively) equal and put through something comparatively arduous, it does good things for helping people gel together. It also probably helps instill a common sense of belonging to a nation. > I'd attribute at least some of Singapore's ability to cultivate a sense of national identity to things like NS. National Service is a tad tricky to discuss. While you mention that everyone is (relatively) equal when put through national service, that statement mainly refers to male citizens and second-generation permanent residents. Females, foreign students, and first-generation migrants aren't required to do so, and I can hardly see how they would be able to empathise with those who have had to undergo NS. One other thing — imagine if one applies to a large MNC, and the hiring manager learns that the applicant might have to eventually fulfill their reservist liabilities and disappear for a month. If the applicant pool is global and there are no quotas to meet for local hires, it's very difficult to see how a competitive role based in Singapore might be filled by a Singaporean.
nickpsecurity 9y ago
"In Singapore we have National Service. " Although not in this debate, I am stepping in to point out that doesn't mean a thing to support your point. It even makes you look like you're stretching facts to cover up problems. Let me illustrate it with a more obvious example. Let's say the country has rich people's kids ending up in rich people jobs, middle class mostly middle class, and poor rarely coming up. This is the U.S. rather than Singapore. Let's say we add NS to the mix where everyone is forced to do a specific thing. The economic structure stays exactly the same since that has nothing to do with it. It's people's money, ability to teach kids better/worse, and connections to institutions that increase effectiveness of those kids along with what opportunities they have. I'd be shocked if this didn't happen in Singapore simply because it happens everywhere that I can tell.
- davidkohcw 9y ago
  > Although not in this debate, I am stepping in to point out that doesn't mean a thing to support your point. From a research report from a local university: The institution of National Service is largely regarded as a social equaliser, which embodies fairness, equality and identity. More than 94% of respondents agree that Servicemen from different family backgrounds are treated equally during National Service, and that National Service policies are applied consistently to everyone in similar situations. [1] In other words, it doesn't matter if you are the son of a millionaire or a janitor, in the army, they treat you the same. Beyond that it forces people to meet people from all sorts of socio-economic levels. And National Service extends until you are around 40 years old, whereby every year they may call you up to serve alongside CEOs', professionals, blue collar workers etc in the army. Singapore is a very rich country, and it is inevitable that there are the very rich, and the less wealthy. What the government has done is made a very affordable world-class education system that allows everybody an equal chance to equip themselves to succeed in life. [1] http://docplayer.net/17167540-Institute-of-policy-studies-survey-report-singaporeans-attitudes-to-national-service-background.html http://docplayer.net/17167540-Institute-of-policy-studies-su...
  - nickpsecurity 9y ago
    "The institution of National Service is largely regarded as a social equaliser, which embodies fairness, equality and identity. More than 94% of respondents agree" Which doesn't argue against my point at all. I already illustrated where classism comes from and how it can only be one component. You'd have to address the others. Instead, you said a bunch of people surveyed in a police state said the police state plan was good. I've even read plenty of dissent on Singaporeans' blogs and stuff on that one so it's extra funny to see such overwhelming support. In any case, what numbers and citations you should look for are what percentage of Singaporeans change classes and which transitions those work. Especially how often the poor become Middle Class and how often lower classes become upper class. Additionally, how often do upper classes become lower class. These will assess how much education and performance really matters vs their background or social connections. For example, in the U.S., the last number I saw quoted was 90+% of people stay in their economic class no matter what efforts put in. Most on boards or C-level positions also started as middle or upper class in "Ivy League" schools. So, our system is rigged to operate based on politics and reinforce current class situation as proven by its results. So, what's Singapore's numbers on that? And could you even get accurate ones with its control over media?

wahern 9y ago

> > rose to power on a platform of communism > This is the funniest part. Not just funny, but suspiciously racist. Ethnic Chinese in Malaysia and Indonesia were branded as communist all through the 1950s and 1960s and, especially in Indonesia, slaughtered. contingencies sounds like he might be from one of the non-Chinese ethnic groups in SE Asia, or part of such a family. He's not wrong that there's deep racism in Singapore. But it goes both ways. Singapore was ejected from the Malaysian Federation for baldly racist reasons--the ethnic Malays wanted to consolidate political power. The Chinese in that region are like the Jews of Europe--economically successful but culturally still the out group. It creates a ton of resentment for all sides. Also, I've traveled widely throughout the world and turns out _everybody_ is racist. The U.S. is probably one of the least racist countries in the world. Why? Because we _talk_ about it and _admit_ it. In the vast majority of countries people still literally take for granted that ethnic group X is obviously naturally inferior, without making the connection between that belief and the Western concept of racism. In the U.S. even the most rabid racists go through great lengths to justify and explain their prejudice. Believe it or not, that's what progress looks like. People need to stop using racism as a cudgel as it makes it impossible for people to discuss issues of racism. It's like calling somebody Hitler--it just ends the conversation. Ultimately it makes it easier for people to stay in denial about racism.

Nutomic 9y ago
You must have never been to Europe. Just look how many black people live in poverty in the US, and how many are shot dead every day.
- nickpsecurity 9y ago
  "Just look how many black people live in poverty in the US, and how many are shot dead every day" You've been reading a lot of propaganda online. You should look up how many white people, esp rural whites, live in poverty. The poverty problem comes from politics that hurt both races. Then, theres other areas where there's less poverty for both groups. Far as murder, I lived in a "murder capital" where we see a new murder on news every day. You forgot to mention how most of the killers are black, most of their victims are black, and usually from areas/upbringing that are black-controlled. Same in a few others. Funny thing is that the black commentators in media of that city do exactly what you did: mention only the data that more blacks are killed to imply something about non-blacks but don't mention that it's usually black people killing them. You should stop listening to whoever told you that stuff. America is complicated given it's so diverse in politics, economic strategies, race, religion, and so on. Better to look at data from various areas from sources with different biases. Also, listen to comments from people from those areas to get their perspective. Then you'll begin to know something about the country I live in.
  - Gigablah 9y ago
    This is a good comment and equally applies to the original post that started this thread.
  - tacomonstrous 9y ago
    I agree with the general point that the US is less racist than European nations, but ignoring the larger point that the situation of the black American community is very much a product of decades long racist policies to systematically deny them the opportunity to build wealth seems very disingenuous to me.

SamReidHughes 9y ago

Well, you know, originally the PAP was allied with the communists. To the point where it seemed informative to describe them as more likely to be crypto-anti-communist than crypto-communist in an internal British communication, based on personal impressions more than anything.

contingencies 9y ago

I have visited Singapore since the 1980s. The evidence you ask for was already provided before your comment; clearly you didn't bother to read the thread. National Service is fascist, and does not at all imply that the society is classless. In fact, from an anthropological perspective it could be construed that military organization is historically the most caste-ridden of all human societies due to its formal recognition of rank. communism Sorry, I should have said socialism. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Action_Party#Political_developments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Action_Party#Politi... ... Initially adopting a traditionalist Leninist party organisation, together with a vanguard cadre from its labour-leaning faction in 1958, the PAP Executive later expelled the leftist faction, bringing the ideological basis of the party into the centre, and later in the 1960s, moving further to the right.

yomly 9y ago
Actually, I'd argue that something like NS, its merits not being discussed here, does do good for social cohesion and cultural integration. When everyone is (relatively) equal and put through something comparatively arduous, it does good things for helping people gel together. It also probably helps instill a common sense of belonging to a nation. I'd attribute at least some of Singapore's ability to cultivate a sense of national identity to things like NS. From what I've seen, Singapore is fairly racist, but in the sense that pretty much everywhere and everyone is racist without very conscious mental effort. That said, Singapore seems pretty well integrated and culturally inclusive considering what a melting pot it is especially on the ground at the interpersonal level. I imagine that as such a small state, these things are easier to micromanage for a government though. Additionally, nothing kills xenophobic sentiment faster than exposure, and as a small city-state, Singapore also provide favorable conditions for that too.
- ValentineC 9y ago
  > Actually, I'd argue that something like NS, its merits not being discussed here, does do good for social cohesion and cultural integration. > When everyone is (relatively) equal and put through something comparatively arduous, it does good things for helping people gel together. It also probably helps instill a common sense of belonging to a nation. > I'd attribute at least some of Singapore's ability to cultivate a sense of national identity to things like NS. National Service is a tad tricky to discuss. While you mention that everyone is (relatively) equal when put through national service, that statement mainly refers to male citizens and second-generation permanent residents. Females, foreign students, and first-generation migrants aren't required to do so, and I can hardly see how they would be able to empathise with those who have had to undergo NS. One other thing — imagine if one applies to a large MNC, and the hiring manager learns that the applicant might have to eventually fulfill their reservist liabilities and disappear for a month. If the applicant pool is global and there are no quotas to meet for local hires, it's very difficult to see how a competitive role based in Singapore might be filled by a Singaporean.

nickpsecurity 9y ago

"In Singapore we have National Service. " Although not in this debate, I am stepping in to point out that doesn't mean a thing to support your point. It even makes you look like you're stretching facts to cover up problems. Let me illustrate it with a more obvious example. Let's say the country has rich people's kids ending up in rich people jobs, middle class mostly middle class, and poor rarely coming up. This is the U.S. rather than Singapore. Let's say we add NS to the mix where everyone is forced to do a specific thing. The economic structure stays exactly the same since that has nothing to do with it. It's people's money, ability to teach kids better/worse, and connections to institutions that increase effectiveness of those kids along with what opportunities they have. I'd be shocked if this didn't happen in Singapore simply because it happens everywhere that I can tell.

davidkohcw 9y ago
> Although not in this debate, I am stepping in to point out that doesn't mean a thing to support your point. From a research report from a local university: The institution of National Service is largely regarded as a social equaliser, which embodies fairness, equality and identity. More than 94% of respondents agree that Servicemen from different family backgrounds are treated equally during National Service, and that National Service policies are applied consistently to everyone in similar situations. [1] In other words, it doesn't matter if you are the son of a millionaire or a janitor, in the army, they treat you the same. Beyond that it forces people to meet people from all sorts of socio-economic levels. And National Service extends until you are around 40 years old, whereby every year they may call you up to serve alongside CEOs', professionals, blue collar workers etc in the army. Singapore is a very rich country, and it is inevitable that there are the very rich, and the less wealthy. What the government has done is made a very affordable world-class education system that allows everybody an equal chance to equip themselves to succeed in life. [1] http://docplayer.net/17167540-Institute-of-policy-studies-survey-report-singaporeans-attitudes-to-national-service-background.html http://docplayer.net/17167540-Institute-of-policy-studies-su...
- nickpsecurity 9y ago
  "The institution of National Service is largely regarded as a social equaliser, which embodies fairness, equality and identity. More than 94% of respondents agree" Which doesn't argue against my point at all. I already illustrated where classism comes from and how it can only be one component. You'd have to address the others. Instead, you said a bunch of people surveyed in a police state said the police state plan was good. I've even read plenty of dissent on Singaporeans' blogs and stuff on that one so it's extra funny to see such overwhelming support. In any case, what numbers and citations you should look for are what percentage of Singaporeans change classes and which transitions those work. Especially how often the poor become Middle Class and how often lower classes become upper class. Additionally, how often do upper classes become lower class. These will assess how much education and performance really matters vs their background or social connections. For example, in the U.S., the last number I saw quoted was 90+% of people stay in their economic class no matter what efforts put in. Most on boards or C-level positions also started as middle or upper class in "Ivy League" schools. So, our system is rigged to operate based on politics and reinforce current class situation as proven by its results. So, what's Singapore's numbers on that? And could you even get accurate ones with its control over media?