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Yes, there are elements of racial and class tension in Singapore, but not significantly more than any other major city on earth. The US certainly does not prop

Yes, there are elements of racial and class tension in Singapore, but not significantly more than any other major city on earth. The US certainly does not prop the government up, unless you mean propping it up by inaction or non-intervention. As to the elements of authoritarianism, a lot of people would argue that the material and social benefits of living in an efficient, forward-thinking state outweighs the subtle elements of state control/overreach.

scurvy 10y ago
It's an interesting moral bargain. Give up any rights to free speech and Internet freedom; in return get a well functioning government and municipal services. Sure, they still house the huddled (brown) masses in ghettos, but they're making progress with public housing for natives. But it's still hot as hell all the time all year. No thanks.
- rorykoehler 10y ago
  I live here and while I don't envy the migrant workers who come here to build HDBs it is clear they do it because the alternative is far worse. They get lodgings and enough pay that they can send money home to support their family, buy some property and eventually move back. The issue is with systemic economic inequality between countries more than with Singapore itself.
  - sho 10y ago
    I agree. And I actually admire the way Singapore is economically honest in this way. By hiring migrant workers to, eg, build the new MRTs, it gets them done much cheaper - and provides thousands of workers with much better jobs than they could have got at home. That money goes straight back to their home countries, raising the wealth of both. Compare to Australia, my own home country, where we could never countenance the ideas of "foreigners coming to take our jobs" - so infrastructure costs 5x as much and, more likely, simply never happens. It wouldn't surprise me if Singapore's what is it, 3 new MRT lines right now? costs the same or less as Sydney's 1 new line. And all the people we could have hired from the philippines or whereever are sitting in their slums unemployed. Who's racist again? Which is more ethical? Which is the better outcome? It boggles my mind how people can be all for foreign labour being used to make things overseas, for example the computer they're typing their comment on, but suddenly against the idea when the labourers have to come here temporarily to make it. It's the same damn thing!
    - satori99 10y ago
      I am also an Aussie, but I have a sister who is a permanent resident in Singapore, and owns a house and a business there. I have spent plenty of time there, and have met lots of western ex-pats who have found success there. But the immigrant worker thing bugs me. These workers, mostly women, are treated very poorly from what I have observed. I have heard my sister threaten her nannies with deportation for not complying with her orders, and have seen and heard of other ex-pats behaving even worse towards their immigrant employees. It seemed to me to be so normalized, that my sister and her friends do not recognize their behavior as being in any way abhorrent. I would hate to see that sort of tiered society in Australia ever. It might work on paper but it also changes the nature of the people they serve in an ugly way.
      - sho 10y ago
        Ah, you were talking about maids. Yes, I agree there needs to be far stricter enforcement there, and a cultural shift to go with it. I haven't witnessed any abuse personally but have also heard stories. I think it's because that mostly happens behind closed doors in private property - there's all sorts of scope for that few percentage of natural assholes to abuse the power they wield, plus as you say, it's sort of culturally acceptable. I too would like to see that changed. That said, would you destroy a whole class of employment just because of a few bad apples? Or even more than a few? I also know that for uneducated girls from villages in Indonesia, working overseas as a maid is like winning the lottery. The alternative is often to become a prostitute. Where's the line? And FWIW I've had a maid before and I don't think it changed me at all. But you're right - there's a certain type of person for whom having a little bit of power over a person unlocks something dark inside them, and in a domestic setting that can be a recipe for mistreatment. More regulation is needed - Singapore's laissez-faire attitude fails it here. I was talking more of the construction industry, where stories of abuse are much less common (and there are witnesses and company licenses at stake) - in this context, migrant work is IMO an inarguable good.
      - EliRivers 10y ago
        That is interesting; I've been to Australia once in my life, year before last. I went from Brisbane to Roma, and by the time I got to Roma the only non-Caucasian faces I saw were serving me food. I was told (but have no other information, so this could of course be completely wrong) that their contracts and immigration status effectively tied them to their service job, hundreds of miles inland where the only other people like them were in a similar subservient situation, and that the people owning their contracts very much had that kind of power over them. This is pure anecdote, of course.
- awongh 10y ago
  I also think 1st worlders from North America / Europe overlook the degree to which Singapore 's government has succeeded in providing a clean safe well-organized environment for its people. Compare this to all of the other nearest cities / capitols in the region (or even further than that), I think you would have to go quite far in any direction to find a place that is as well looked after for all levels of society. (Taiwan?) And whats the other closest city to Singapore that has potable drinking water? Is this bargain worth it? As an American, there are plenty of things the Singaporean government does that makes me uncomfortable. But who's to say which is better? Compared to Bangkok or Kuala Lumpur or similar, where would you have preferred to have been born?
  - scurvy 10y ago
    Ironically, isn't potable drinking water supply an issue for Singapore? It's mainly brought over from Malaysia, right? Read a few articles on the subject in the Straights many years ago.
    - awongh 10y ago
      I hadn't heard that. Do you have a link? afaik the water from malaysia isn't potable, it's treated in singapore.....
      - scurvy 10y ago
        Here's one from 2011: http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/04/07/singapore.water.dilemma/ http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/04/07/singapore.water.... I guess now they do more desalinization and recycle sewage water for drinking.
CyberDildonics 10y ago
> living in an efficient, forward-thinking state outweighs the subtle elements of state control/overreach You do realize they throw people in jail for criticizing the government on facebook right?
- finolex1 10y ago
  As someone who has lived in Singapore for a couple of decades I think I'm well suited to answering this. There is plenty of criticism that goes on against the government both online and in real life. The only people who are charged with libel suits are those who have either - a) put forth blatantly false statements and have achieved a certain level of fame b) made statements against certain races and religions. Obviously this isn't the same level of freedom of speech that is found in America but it is nowhere near as draconian as the western media would like to portray. The number of people who fall into the categories above are a handful. For the millions of people who are only superficially engaged politically this simply does not matter to them, and the quality of living they enjoy far outweighs whatever prohibitions on free speech is imposed.
  - hellofunk 10y ago
    > For the millions of people who are only superficially engaged politically People are much less likely to be politically engaged in Singapore because of the overall concern about how speaking out could affect them negatively. In private, you often hear strong opinions from taxi drivers, for example, who think they are anonymous to you, but rarely will they speak up in public. That is what happens in a society without free speech and when people can be publicly prosecuted for what they say.
  - CyberDildonics 10y ago
    Charged for "promoting feelings of ill-will and hostility" http://www.therakyatpost.com/world/2015/09/21/filipino-nurse-in-singapore-jailed-for-sedition-through-facebook/ http://www.therakyatpost.com/world/2015/09/21/filipino-nurse... Teenager jailed for insulting Lee Kuan Yew http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-37505951 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-37505951 Same event, one of the charges is "wounding religious feeling" http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/29/asia/singapore-amos-yee-teen-blogger-sentence/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/29/asia/singapore-amos-yee-teen-b...

scurvy 10y ago

It's an interesting moral bargain. Give up any rights to free speech and Internet freedom; in return get a well functioning government and municipal services. Sure, they still house the huddled (brown) masses in ghettos, but they're making progress with public housing for natives. But it's still hot as hell all the time all year. No thanks.

rorykoehler 10y ago
I live here and while I don't envy the migrant workers who come here to build HDBs it is clear they do it because the alternative is far worse. They get lodgings and enough pay that they can send money home to support their family, buy some property and eventually move back. The issue is with systemic economic inequality between countries more than with Singapore itself.
- sho 10y ago
  I agree. And I actually admire the way Singapore is economically honest in this way. By hiring migrant workers to, eg, build the new MRTs, it gets them done much cheaper - and provides thousands of workers with much better jobs than they could have got at home. That money goes straight back to their home countries, raising the wealth of both. Compare to Australia, my own home country, where we could never countenance the ideas of "foreigners coming to take our jobs" - so infrastructure costs 5x as much and, more likely, simply never happens. It wouldn't surprise me if Singapore's what is it, 3 new MRT lines right now? costs the same or less as Sydney's 1 new line. And all the people we could have hired from the philippines or whereever are sitting in their slums unemployed. Who's racist again? Which is more ethical? Which is the better outcome? It boggles my mind how people can be all for foreign labour being used to make things overseas, for example the computer they're typing their comment on, but suddenly against the idea when the labourers have to come here temporarily to make it. It's the same damn thing!
  - satori99 10y ago
    I am also an Aussie, but I have a sister who is a permanent resident in Singapore, and owns a house and a business there. I have spent plenty of time there, and have met lots of western ex-pats who have found success there. But the immigrant worker thing bugs me. These workers, mostly women, are treated very poorly from what I have observed. I have heard my sister threaten her nannies with deportation for not complying with her orders, and have seen and heard of other ex-pats behaving even worse towards their immigrant employees. It seemed to me to be so normalized, that my sister and her friends do not recognize their behavior as being in any way abhorrent. I would hate to see that sort of tiered society in Australia ever. It might work on paper but it also changes the nature of the people they serve in an ugly way.
    - sho 10y ago
      Ah, you were talking about maids. Yes, I agree there needs to be far stricter enforcement there, and a cultural shift to go with it. I haven't witnessed any abuse personally but have also heard stories. I think it's because that mostly happens behind closed doors in private property - there's all sorts of scope for that few percentage of natural assholes to abuse the power they wield, plus as you say, it's sort of culturally acceptable. I too would like to see that changed. That said, would you destroy a whole class of employment just because of a few bad apples? Or even more than a few? I also know that for uneducated girls from villages in Indonesia, working overseas as a maid is like winning the lottery. The alternative is often to become a prostitute. Where's the line? And FWIW I've had a maid before and I don't think it changed me at all. But you're right - there's a certain type of person for whom having a little bit of power over a person unlocks something dark inside them, and in a domestic setting that can be a recipe for mistreatment. More regulation is needed - Singapore's laissez-faire attitude fails it here. I was talking more of the construction industry, where stories of abuse are much less common (and there are witnesses and company licenses at stake) - in this context, migrant work is IMO an inarguable good.
    - EliRivers 10y ago
      That is interesting; I've been to Australia once in my life, year before last. I went from Brisbane to Roma, and by the time I got to Roma the only non-Caucasian faces I saw were serving me food. I was told (but have no other information, so this could of course be completely wrong) that their contracts and immigration status effectively tied them to their service job, hundreds of miles inland where the only other people like them were in a similar subservient situation, and that the people owning their contracts very much had that kind of power over them. This is pure anecdote, of course.
awongh 10y ago
I also think 1st worlders from North America / Europe overlook the degree to which Singapore 's government has succeeded in providing a clean safe well-organized environment for its people. Compare this to all of the other nearest cities / capitols in the region (or even further than that), I think you would have to go quite far in any direction to find a place that is as well looked after for all levels of society. (Taiwan?) And whats the other closest city to Singapore that has potable drinking water? Is this bargain worth it? As an American, there are plenty of things the Singaporean government does that makes me uncomfortable. But who's to say which is better? Compared to Bangkok or Kuala Lumpur or similar, where would you have preferred to have been born?
- scurvy 10y ago
  Ironically, isn't potable drinking water supply an issue for Singapore? It's mainly brought over from Malaysia, right? Read a few articles on the subject in the Straights many years ago.
  - awongh 10y ago
    I hadn't heard that. Do you have a link? afaik the water from malaysia isn't potable, it's treated in singapore.....
    - scurvy 10y ago
      Here's one from 2011: http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/04/07/singapore.water.dilemma/ http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/04/07/singapore.water.... I guess now they do more desalinization and recycle sewage water for drinking.

CyberDildonics 10y ago

> living in an efficient, forward-thinking state outweighs the subtle elements of state control/overreach You do realize they throw people in jail for criticizing the government on facebook right?

finolex1 10y ago
As someone who has lived in Singapore for a couple of decades I think I'm well suited to answering this. There is plenty of criticism that goes on against the government both online and in real life. The only people who are charged with libel suits are those who have either - a) put forth blatantly false statements and have achieved a certain level of fame b) made statements against certain races and religions. Obviously this isn't the same level of freedom of speech that is found in America but it is nowhere near as draconian as the western media would like to portray. The number of people who fall into the categories above are a handful. For the millions of people who are only superficially engaged politically this simply does not matter to them, and the quality of living they enjoy far outweighs whatever prohibitions on free speech is imposed.
- hellofunk 10y ago
  > For the millions of people who are only superficially engaged politically People are much less likely to be politically engaged in Singapore because of the overall concern about how speaking out could affect them negatively. In private, you often hear strong opinions from taxi drivers, for example, who think they are anonymous to you, but rarely will they speak up in public. That is what happens in a society without free speech and when people can be publicly prosecuted for what they say.
- CyberDildonics 10y ago
  Charged for "promoting feelings of ill-will and hostility" http://www.therakyatpost.com/world/2015/09/21/filipino-nurse-in-singapore-jailed-for-sedition-through-facebook/ http://www.therakyatpost.com/world/2015/09/21/filipino-nurse... Teenager jailed for insulting Lee Kuan Yew http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-37505951 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-37505951 Same event, one of the charges is "wounding religious feeling" http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/29/asia/singapore-amos-yee-teen-blogger-sentence/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/29/asia/singapore-amos-yee-teen-b...