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Same debate is going on in Rome at the moment, where orange-y light also contributes alot to the beauty of the city at night: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/27

Same debate is going on in Rome at the moment, where orange-y light also contributes alot to the beauty of the city at night: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/27/world/europe/rome-streetlights-led-lights.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/27/world/europe/rome-streetl... What I wonder is: ok, so LED ligts save a lot of energy, which is great. But do they all have to be #FFFFFF white? Given that there's LEDs in all colours, would it be much more expensive to build/ buy/ run e.g. orange LEDs?

odiroot 10y ago
Here in Berlin we still have a lot of gas lamps (automatically operated) and they're really charming. I definitely wouldn't want the city to replace them with LEDs.
- TillE 10y ago
  Berlin does an extremely poor job with street lighting in general. Most of the city is very dark at night.
  - jessaustin 10y ago
    These two sentences contradict each other. It's good for nighttime to be dark. Berlin sounds quite appealing as compared to other cities, in this respect.
  - odiroot 10y ago
    That's true, streetlights are a bit dim but I don't think it's a problem.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
ferongr 10y ago
Modern white LEDs are actually a blue LED behind a yellow phosphor mask that turns the light white. More power emmited in the blue side of the spectrum results in better efficiency, and the difference is significant.
- gilgoomesh 10y ago
  The only reason to do everything with a blue LED + phosphor is that it's smaller and simpler than an array of LEDs – particularly for small lights. Streetlights use arrays of LEDs anyway (to achieve appropriate brightness) so shouldn't have any problem using a mix of different colors.
  - ferongr 10y ago
    The color reproduction of RGB white LEDs is terrible. You just have tree spikes in the spectrum were each LED emmits light.
    - adrianN 10y ago
      Street lighting isn't meant for photography though.
      - tempestn 10y ago
        There is value to having things look like the colour they actually are outside of photography. Think of the nice red dress turning brown in the article.
  - colanderman 10y ago
    Mixing colors in the array would be horrific. The array is sparse enough that each LED casts a distinct shadow through foliage. This forms a unique lighting texture on the pavement. If each LED were randomly red, amber, green, you'd have wild colors all over the pavement. Single color is the way to go. And the broad spectrum produced by phosphor makes for better vision compared to the narrow spectrum of sodium or straight-LED lighting. IMO the best option would be phosphor + yellow or green LED.
- maxander 10y ago
  Would it be much harder to have an even-yellow-er phosphor mask that would turn the light orange?
SilasX 10y ago
That's a general problem with efficiency regulations: they don't model the full benefits of the (product with) higher energy use, nor do they give the users a chance to pay for the purported externalities if they they value them so highly. In that respect, they commit the planner's fallacy of acting on costs they can't observe. (If your model says that the externalities are infinitely bad and inherently unaffordable you're probably very wrong.)
- xapata 10y ago
  The solution would be a simple carbon tax rather than efficiency thresholds. I don't understand why the supposed "small government" folks dislike a carbon tax when it'd avoid so much bureaucracy.
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    Because a) it's a tax, and b) it would impact gasoline prices, and thus their freedom to drive everywhere. I.e. the very reasons it should be introduced.
    - duncan_bayne 10y ago
      In other words, it's about controlling other people's behaviour - which is the very basis of one of the arguments against it.
      - TeMPOraL 10y ago
        It's about pricing back in what is now externality. It's about making things fair. Which is the basis of living in a society. For max freedom, people should move to Somalia.
        duncan_bayne 10y ago
        What makes you think you can achieve maximal freedom without a functioning Government to enforce the rule of law? I think you're erecting and attacking a strawman, there.
dom0 10y ago
> so LED ligts save a lot of energy Actually HPS lights are very efficient, pretty much the same as LEDs on a Lumens per Watt.
jdeibele 10y ago
Why not replace the transparent cover with a different color? Or glue a sheet of plastic over the LEDs in the exact tone you want? From what I've read, orange LEDs are generally more expensive in and of themselves. And to order them for streetlights when everybody else is using white would probably be 4 or 5x more expensive.

odiroot 10y ago

Here in Berlin we still have a lot of gas lamps (automatically operated) and they're really charming. I definitely wouldn't want the city to replace them with LEDs.

TillE 10y ago
Berlin does an extremely poor job with street lighting in general. Most of the city is very dark at night.
- jessaustin 10y ago
  These two sentences contradict each other. It's good for nighttime to be dark. Berlin sounds quite appealing as compared to other cities, in this respect.
- odiroot 10y ago
  That's true, streetlights are a bit dim but I don't think it's a problem.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

ferongr 10y ago

Modern white LEDs are actually a blue LED behind a yellow phosphor mask that turns the light white. More power emmited in the blue side of the spectrum results in better efficiency, and the difference is significant.

gilgoomesh 10y ago
The only reason to do everything with a blue LED + phosphor is that it's smaller and simpler than an array of LEDs – particularly for small lights. Streetlights use arrays of LEDs anyway (to achieve appropriate brightness) so shouldn't have any problem using a mix of different colors.
- ferongr 10y ago
  The color reproduction of RGB white LEDs is terrible. You just have tree spikes in the spectrum were each LED emmits light.
  - adrianN 10y ago
    Street lighting isn't meant for photography though.
    - tempestn 10y ago
      There is value to having things look like the colour they actually are outside of photography. Think of the nice red dress turning brown in the article.
- colanderman 10y ago
  Mixing colors in the array would be horrific. The array is sparse enough that each LED casts a distinct shadow through foliage. This forms a unique lighting texture on the pavement. If each LED were randomly red, amber, green, you'd have wild colors all over the pavement. Single color is the way to go. And the broad spectrum produced by phosphor makes for better vision compared to the narrow spectrum of sodium or straight-LED lighting. IMO the best option would be phosphor + yellow or green LED.
maxander 10y ago
Would it be much harder to have an even-yellow-er phosphor mask that would turn the light orange?

SilasX 10y ago

That's a general problem with efficiency regulations: they don't model the full benefits of the (product with) higher energy use, nor do they give the users a chance to pay for the purported externalities if they they value them so highly. In that respect, they commit the planner's fallacy of acting on costs they can't observe. (If your model says that the externalities are infinitely bad and inherently unaffordable you're probably very wrong.)

xapata 10y ago
The solution would be a simple carbon tax rather than efficiency thresholds. I don't understand why the supposed "small government" folks dislike a carbon tax when it'd avoid so much bureaucracy.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  Because a) it's a tax, and b) it would impact gasoline prices, and thus their freedom to drive everywhere. I.e. the very reasons it should be introduced.
  - duncan_bayne 10y ago
    In other words, it's about controlling other people's behaviour - which is the very basis of one of the arguments against it.
    - TeMPOraL 10y ago
      It's about pricing back in what is now externality. It's about making things fair. Which is the basis of living in a society. For max freedom, people should move to Somalia.
      - duncan_bayne 10y ago
        What makes you think you can achieve maximal freedom without a functioning Government to enforce the rule of law? I think you're erecting and attacking a strawman, there.

dom0 10y ago

> so LED ligts save a lot of energy Actually HPS lights are very efficient, pretty much the same as LEDs on a Lumens per Watt.

jdeibele 10y ago

Why not replace the transparent cover with a different color? Or glue a sheet of plastic over the LEDs in the exact tone you want? From what I've read, orange LEDs are generally more expensive in and of themselves. And to order them for streetlights when everybody else is using white would probably be 4 or 5x more expensive.