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* India is sovereign and can do whatever it likes. It can ban American companies at will. * There are hundreds of thousands of H1-Bs in America right now. *

* India is sovereign and can do whatever it likes. It can ban American companies at will. * There are hundreds of thousands of H1-Bs in America right now. * Most, if not all, of these jobs should go to Americans. * Non-profits ( virtually all universities and hospitals in the US ) are exempt from annual caps. * H1-B is frequently used to illegally replace American workers. * There are so many Indians and Chinese in the H1-B program that legitimately qualified foreign nationals ( ex: PhD degree holders ) from other countries cannot even get into the US. * Why is H1-B 80% Indian? India surely doesn't have a monopoly on brilliant people. * If hundreds of thousands of Americans were being imported into India to do jobs for which there were qualified Indian workers, you better believe that Indians would be extremely unhappy about it. * And here you are, with the expectation that US professionals should welcome low cost replacements with open arms. * I live and work in Seattle. Nearly every single American citizen I know is opposed to H1-B. Many are too polite/afraid to say anything at work, but most of them would rather the H1-B workers just went home.

subhobroto 9y ago
I love this response. The H1-B program was meant to import labor only in the case that there is absolutely no American capable of doing the job: in reality, it has become a means of labor arbitrage. Make no mistake though, that labor arbitrage is a challenge special to the U.S. As I have explained in my answer (https://www.quora.com/Are-H-1B-visas-causing-large-scale-unemployment-in-the-US/answer/Subhobroto-Sinha-1 https://www.quora.com/Are-H-1B-visas-causing-large-scale-une...) and comments (https://www.quora.com/Are-H-1B-visas-causing-large-scale-unemployment-in-the-US/comment/1989873 https://www.quora.com/Are-H-1B-visas-causing-large-scale-une...) on Quora, most developed nations make extensive use of labor arbitrage. Sure, China and India is the center of labor arbitrage, but there are a lot of applicants from developed countries too. I have spoken with Canadians immigrating to the U.S. because they can't afford to live in Canada; I have spoken with Germans immigrating to the U.S. because they can't afford to live in Germany; I have spoken with Finns immigrating to the U.S. because they can't afford to live in Finland and so on. All have the same story. The reason being that at their home country, the companies are hiring immigrants from developing countries at lower labor costs. That depresses wages for that industry and I am not only talking about tech jobs. My Quora answer shows how doctors are similarly affected: https://www.quora.com/Are-H-1B-visas-causing-large-scale-unemployment-in-the-US/comment/1989873 https://www.quora.com/Are-H-1B-visas-causing-large-scale-une... The Canadians/Germans/Finns/etc have an expectation for a quality of life they are now unable to maintain on such depressed wages and hence they immigrate to the U.S. Here are some more datapoints: https://www.quora.com/Are-H-1B-visas-causing-large-scale-unemployment-in-the-US/comment/2013178 https://www.quora.com/Are-H-1B-visas-causing-large-scale-une... None of them are happy they had to immigrate to the U.S. and the U.S. citizens they likely displaced are not happy about that either. I hate the exploitation of the H1-B program: but the H1-B is capitalism, free markets and the global marketplace at its best. The free market does not care if it burns the factory and workers its making money off to the ground. The free market only looks at one thing: Profit.
- davidf18 9y ago
  > "I hate the exploitation of the H1-B program: but the H1-B is capitalism..." Sure, there is capitalism, but there is also breaking the law. The abuse of the H1-B Visa program is breaking the law since it is only supposed to be used in cases where there is no American qualified to do the job. The law needs changing so that violation means jail time. The EU has a similar problem with working class and hence BrExit as a result. Cheap labor from Eastern Europe has been displacing the British working class. Of course, the elites like this because it means they have to pay less money for labor and the NHS has to pay less for nurses. The US has free trade agreements where there are no or low tariffs but not free movement of labor. NAFTA is one such example. The EU as part of their agreement has low-tariffs and free flow of labor connected and that is why BrExit happened. Even though most Americans are against H1-B the politicians seem to be for expanding the program. Here is Mark Rubio: http://www.breitbart.com/2016-presidential-race/2015/10/30/h-1b-expert-marco-rubio-fakes-opposition-h-1b-outsourcing/ http://www.breitbart.com/2016-presidential-race/2015/10/30/h... Trump won because he was basically the only Republican and along with Sanders the only other candidate that wanted American workers to get paid fairly.
  - subhobroto 9y ago
    David, I have read your comments on related threads before and I appreciate the amount of passion and follow through you have. It would be a pleasure hearing your feedback (and connecting with you) > Trump won because he was basically the only Republican and along with Sanders the only other candidate that wanted American workers to get paid fairly. Trump won because he made promises that no other candidate was willing to make because they were more experienced and knew better. Sanders operates on a completely different level. He was the best of all candidates but we don't deserve the likes of Sanders. He will never win the presidency because he's too dedicated to his mission. He's the 60 year old programmer who's been at the company for decades nursing the company's legacy software while the fresh out of college MBA who makes 5x his salary tells him he's missing the bigger picture. > but there is also breaking the law. The abuse of the H1-B Visa program is breaking the law My understanding is that none of the companies are breaking the law. They are surely exploiting the intent of the H1B but their final/end clients are U.S. companies looking to boost their profits by paying less in wages and benefits. These U.S. companies create the demand for these Indian companies to exploit the H1B. The H1B story: U.S. Company: "I have a position for a Senior Bathroom Scrubber in Bumfuck, YZ that pays market rates of $XYZ/yr and sanitation gloves every month" American Worker: "Those 'market rates' are years old. No way I am working as a Senior Bathroom Scrubber in Bumfuck, YZ for $XYZ/yr and janky sanitation gloves every month" Subhobroto (worker from India): "Yeah, I have a M.S. from a U.S. University and don't mind working as a Senior Bathroom Scrubber in Bumfuck, YZ for $XYZ/yr if you apply for my green card. Sanitation gloves provided for me every month is awesome!" U.S. Company: "Ding! Ding! Welcome! We don't have an issue applying for your green card. By the way, we can't promote you and/or increase your salary ever again because reasons A,B,C" American Worker: WTF! Subhobroto (worker from India): "Thank you. I know I'm getting paid less than what I would have made if I had better negotiating power but I will have that power after I have a green card and am not a temporary worker anymore legally required to leave the country immeidately if you fire me, so this is just the price of admission. Plus, I'm getting paid more than if I had worked for a company back in India anyways" End of scene. Subhobroto and U.S. Company walk away into the sunset (to divorce a decade later once the H1B matures to a greencard) leaving behind an angry American Worker. Subhobroto is well aware that he and his future generations will be in the same shoes as the American Worker in a few years, but that's for scene 2. As I show in https://www.quora.com/Are-H-1B-visas-causing-large-scale-unemployment-in-the-US/comment/2013178 https://www.quora.com/Are-H-1B-visas-causing-large-scale-une..., this is not unique to the U.S. You can replace "American Worker" with "German Worker" and so on with no loss in generality. Feel free to connect with me: https://www.quora.com/profile/Subhobroto-Sinha-1 https://www.quora.com/profile/Subhobroto-Sinha-1
harigov 9y ago
As I mentioned, I am not opposed to H1-B reforms. If there are corporations that are abusing the system by not following the spirit of the law, rules must be revised and the corporations must go through due legal process. If they are illegally replacing American workers, one could sue them and get their fair share. I haven't seen any major legal cases regarding the same so I am not sure what gives you so much confidence in stating that it is frequently used to illegally replace American workers. There are always a couple of exceptions but citing that as a major issue is a bit disingenuous. American companies outsourcing some of their work (HR/Recruitment/Pay/IT, etc.,) to other companies happens all the time. It just so happens that some of these outsourcing companies are Indian. This is the way it has been in a globalized economy. American companies produce high-tech equipment while developing companies provide low-end manufacturing and services. There are so many Indians and Chinese on H1-B because they both add up to 40% of the world population and they are culturally inclined towards academics which is why they make up a significant number of students in graduate and PhD programs; not that other cultures aren't, but they particularly are. Also, unlike other nationalities, where folks get a green card within 2-3 years of being in H1-B, Indians have to wait it out for almost 10 years (Source: https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/law-and-policy/bulletin/2017/visa-bulletin-for-april-2017.html https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/law-and-policy/bul...). Because everyone on H1-B has to renew their visa every 3 years, the percentage of the Indian H1-B visa applicants shows up as higher. Legitimate foreign nationals with PhD's don't get an H1-B because of the lottery system used for issuing visas and that is something that must be fixed. There are 1.4 open jobs in tech for every single American meeting the requirements. H1-B's are filling a need left open by Americans choosing to study non-STEM courses. I am not sure where you get the number that hundreds of thousands of Americans, with programming/IT/engineering skills, are unemployed because of immigrants. Unemployment in IT is one of the lowest in all the industries (Source: https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t14.htm https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t14.htm) even though there are 5.7 million job openings (Source: https://www.bls.gov/news.release/jolts.nr0.htm https://www.bls.gov/news.release/jolts.nr0.htm). It is assumed that 3% unemployment rate is normal and can be attributed to general employee turnover rate. If there were qualified Indian workers losing their jobs to Americans, I would be unhappy too. But you don't have that problem. This country is built by immigrants and it always had a steady flow of immigrants. It was Germans and then Irish and then Japanese and then Russians and then Chinese and now Indians. H1-B is the latest incarnation of a process to immigrate. The majority of these immigrants are highly educated, work on a high paying job, pay taxes and help the local economy. If every single American citizen you know is opposed to them being here, maybe you should find yourself some open-minded friends.

subhobroto 9y ago

I love this response. The H1-B program was meant to import labor only in the case that there is absolutely no American capable of doing the job: in reality, it has become a means of labor arbitrage. Make no mistake though, that labor arbitrage is a challenge special to the U.S. As I have explained in my answer (https://www.quora.com/Are-H-1B-visas-causing-large-scale-unemployment-in-the-US/answer/Subhobroto-Sinha-1 https://www.quora.com/Are-H-1B-visas-causing-large-scale-une...) and comments (https://www.quora.com/Are-H-1B-visas-causing-large-scale-unemployment-in-the-US/comment/1989873 https://www.quora.com/Are-H-1B-visas-causing-large-scale-une...) on Quora, most developed nations make extensive use of labor arbitrage. Sure, China and India is the center of labor arbitrage, but there are a lot of applicants from developed countries too. I have spoken with Canadians immigrating to the U.S. because they can't afford to live in Canada; I have spoken with Germans immigrating to the U.S. because they can't afford to live in Germany; I have spoken with Finns immigrating to the U.S. because they can't afford to live in Finland and so on. All have the same story. The reason being that at their home country, the companies are hiring immigrants from developing countries at lower labor costs. That depresses wages for that industry and I am not only talking about tech jobs. My Quora answer shows how doctors are similarly affected: https://www.quora.com/Are-H-1B-visas-causing-large-scale-unemployment-in-the-US/comment/1989873 https://www.quora.com/Are-H-1B-visas-causing-large-scale-une... The Canadians/Germans/Finns/etc have an expectation for a quality of life they are now unable to maintain on such depressed wages and hence they immigrate to the U.S. Here are some more datapoints: https://www.quora.com/Are-H-1B-visas-causing-large-scale-unemployment-in-the-US/comment/2013178 https://www.quora.com/Are-H-1B-visas-causing-large-scale-une... None of them are happy they had to immigrate to the U.S. and the U.S. citizens they likely displaced are not happy about that either. I hate the exploitation of the H1-B program: but the H1-B is capitalism, free markets and the global marketplace at its best. The free market does not care if it burns the factory and workers its making money off to the ground. The free market only looks at one thing: Profit.

davidf18 9y ago
> "I hate the exploitation of the H1-B program: but the H1-B is capitalism..." Sure, there is capitalism, but there is also breaking the law. The abuse of the H1-B Visa program is breaking the law since it is only supposed to be used in cases where there is no American qualified to do the job. The law needs changing so that violation means jail time. The EU has a similar problem with working class and hence BrExit as a result. Cheap labor from Eastern Europe has been displacing the British working class. Of course, the elites like this because it means they have to pay less money for labor and the NHS has to pay less for nurses. The US has free trade agreements where there are no or low tariffs but not free movement of labor. NAFTA is one such example. The EU as part of their agreement has low-tariffs and free flow of labor connected and that is why BrExit happened. Even though most Americans are against H1-B the politicians seem to be for expanding the program. Here is Mark Rubio: http://www.breitbart.com/2016-presidential-race/2015/10/30/h-1b-expert-marco-rubio-fakes-opposition-h-1b-outsourcing/ http://www.breitbart.com/2016-presidential-race/2015/10/30/h... Trump won because he was basically the only Republican and along with Sanders the only other candidate that wanted American workers to get paid fairly.
- subhobroto 9y ago
  David, I have read your comments on related threads before and I appreciate the amount of passion and follow through you have. It would be a pleasure hearing your feedback (and connecting with you) > Trump won because he was basically the only Republican and along with Sanders the only other candidate that wanted American workers to get paid fairly. Trump won because he made promises that no other candidate was willing to make because they were more experienced and knew better. Sanders operates on a completely different level. He was the best of all candidates but we don't deserve the likes of Sanders. He will never win the presidency because he's too dedicated to his mission. He's the 60 year old programmer who's been at the company for decades nursing the company's legacy software while the fresh out of college MBA who makes 5x his salary tells him he's missing the bigger picture. > but there is also breaking the law. The abuse of the H1-B Visa program is breaking the law My understanding is that none of the companies are breaking the law. They are surely exploiting the intent of the H1B but their final/end clients are U.S. companies looking to boost their profits by paying less in wages and benefits. These U.S. companies create the demand for these Indian companies to exploit the H1B. The H1B story: U.S. Company: "I have a position for a Senior Bathroom Scrubber in Bumfuck, YZ that pays market rates of $XYZ/yr and sanitation gloves every month" American Worker: "Those 'market rates' are years old. No way I am working as a Senior Bathroom Scrubber in Bumfuck, YZ for $XYZ/yr and janky sanitation gloves every month" Subhobroto (worker from India): "Yeah, I have a M.S. from a U.S. University and don't mind working as a Senior Bathroom Scrubber in Bumfuck, YZ for $XYZ/yr if you apply for my green card. Sanitation gloves provided for me every month is awesome!" U.S. Company: "Ding! Ding! Welcome! We don't have an issue applying for your green card. By the way, we can't promote you and/or increase your salary ever again because reasons A,B,C" American Worker: WTF! Subhobroto (worker from India): "Thank you. I know I'm getting paid less than what I would have made if I had better negotiating power but I will have that power after I have a green card and am not a temporary worker anymore legally required to leave the country immeidately if you fire me, so this is just the price of admission. Plus, I'm getting paid more than if I had worked for a company back in India anyways" End of scene. Subhobroto and U.S. Company walk away into the sunset (to divorce a decade later once the H1B matures to a greencard) leaving behind an angry American Worker. Subhobroto is well aware that he and his future generations will be in the same shoes as the American Worker in a few years, but that's for scene 2. As I show in https://www.quora.com/Are-H-1B-visas-causing-large-scale-unemployment-in-the-US/comment/2013178 https://www.quora.com/Are-H-1B-visas-causing-large-scale-une..., this is not unique to the U.S. You can replace "American Worker" with "German Worker" and so on with no loss in generality. Feel free to connect with me: https://www.quora.com/profile/Subhobroto-Sinha-1 https://www.quora.com/profile/Subhobroto-Sinha-1

harigov 9y ago

As I mentioned, I am not opposed to H1-B reforms. If there are corporations that are abusing the system by not following the spirit of the law, rules must be revised and the corporations must go through due legal process. If they are illegally replacing American workers, one could sue them and get their fair share. I haven't seen any major legal cases regarding the same so I am not sure what gives you so much confidence in stating that it is frequently used to illegally replace American workers. There are always a couple of exceptions but citing that as a major issue is a bit disingenuous. American companies outsourcing some of their work (HR/Recruitment/Pay/IT, etc.,) to other companies happens all the time. It just so happens that some of these outsourcing companies are Indian. This is the way it has been in a globalized economy. American companies produce high-tech equipment while developing companies provide low-end manufacturing and services. There are so many Indians and Chinese on H1-B because they both add up to 40% of the world population and they are culturally inclined towards academics which is why they make up a significant number of students in graduate and PhD programs; not that other cultures aren't, but they particularly are. Also, unlike other nationalities, where folks get a green card within 2-3 years of being in H1-B, Indians have to wait it out for almost 10 years (Source: https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/law-and-policy/bulletin/2017/visa-bulletin-for-april-2017.html https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/law-and-policy/bul...). Because everyone on H1-B has to renew their visa every 3 years, the percentage of the Indian H1-B visa applicants shows up as higher. Legitimate foreign nationals with PhD's don't get an H1-B because of the lottery system used for issuing visas and that is something that must be fixed. There are 1.4 open jobs in tech for every single American meeting the requirements. H1-B's are filling a need left open by Americans choosing to study non-STEM courses. I am not sure where you get the number that hundreds of thousands of Americans, with programming/IT/engineering skills, are unemployed because of immigrants. Unemployment in IT is one of the lowest in all the industries (Source: https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t14.htm https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t14.htm) even though there are 5.7 million job openings (Source: https://www.bls.gov/news.release/jolts.nr0.htm https://www.bls.gov/news.release/jolts.nr0.htm). It is assumed that 3% unemployment rate is normal and can be attributed to general employee turnover rate. If there were qualified Indian workers losing their jobs to Americans, I would be unhappy too. But you don't have that problem. This country is built by immigrants and it always had a steady flow of immigrants. It was Germans and then Irish and then Japanese and then Russians and then Chinese and now Indians. H1-B is the latest incarnation of a process to immigrate. The majority of these immigrants are highly educated, work on a high paying job, pay taxes and help the local economy. If every single American citizen you know is opposed to them being here, maybe you should find yourself some open-minded friends.