4 ms·

It seems like you're confusing having a say with simply getting what you want. If you don't like the seniority pay structure a union is pushing, you can go and

by Frondo 10y ago

It seems like you're confusing having a say with simply getting what you want. If you don't like the seniority pay structure a union is pushing, you can go and try and talk to people to change the vote. Presumably there are a lot more younger workers than old (the way it tends to go everywhere), and you younguns could arrange the union in a way to benefit you now AND in the future. No union? Well, you're on your own, negotiating with people who see you as disposable and expendable (and they do--they'd be fools not to). Remember, in a democracy, a vote isn't a ticket to instantly get what you want, it's a way to ensure that you have some say even if it doesn't go your way every time.

chrisseaton 10y ago
> you can go and try and talk to people to change the vote Or I could not join the union! Vote with my feet! Why would I want to give more power to a group of people trying to do something I don't want? You're saying join them, vote on it, and then when I lose the vote stick with it anyway because that's democracy. No, if I don't like something then I'm better off not affording them the right to say they're representing me. The union knows that, so they have an incentive to give me disinformation to get me to join. That's my original point - the union does potentially have incentives to give disinformation. Just like the company has. So I treat both with skepticism.
- secstate 10y ago
  Healthy skepticism is important in ALL facets of life. You would join the union because the organization of labor gives you more power than individually. This is all pretty basic democratic theory here. Why would an independent state join a federation of states? Why not vote with it's feet by seceding when they don't get what they want out of the federation? Perhaps because the benefits outweigh the loss? Don't like seniority pay, but what about the four weeks base vacation and the negotiated pay scale that benefits younger workers? The point here is that companies are by design dictatorships (or at best oligarchies) and unionization is not the evil that 20th century robber barons told you they are. The UAW has done infinitely better things for labor in the US than most people could ever understand, even if their power led to a certain amount of corruption. Corruption of a democracy is at least marginally better than a dictatorship where you just hope the dictator is benevolent.
- Apocryphon 10y ago
  Same way you can choose not to live in a country that makes democratic decisions you disagree with. You would then go work at a company that is a union-shop, or even an industry that is not unionized.

by Frondo 10y ago

chrisseaton 10y ago

> you can go and try and talk to people to change the vote Or I could not join the union! Vote with my feet! Why would I want to give more power to a group of people trying to do something I don't want? You're saying join them, vote on it, and then when I lose the vote stick with it anyway because that's democracy. No, if I don't like something then I'm better off not affording them the right to say they're representing me. The union knows that, so they have an incentive to give me disinformation to get me to join. That's my original point - the union does potentially have incentives to give disinformation. Just like the company has. So I treat both with skepticism.

secstate 10y ago
Healthy skepticism is important in ALL facets of life. You would join the union because the organization of labor gives you more power than individually. This is all pretty basic democratic theory here. Why would an independent state join a federation of states? Why not vote with it's feet by seceding when they don't get what they want out of the federation? Perhaps because the benefits outweigh the loss? Don't like seniority pay, but what about the four weeks base vacation and the negotiated pay scale that benefits younger workers? The point here is that companies are by design dictatorships (or at best oligarchies) and unionization is not the evil that 20th century robber barons told you they are. The UAW has done infinitely better things for labor in the US than most people could ever understand, even if their power led to a certain amount of corruption. Corruption of a democracy is at least marginally better than a dictatorship where you just hope the dictator is benevolent.
Apocryphon 10y ago
Same way you can choose not to live in a country that makes democratic decisions you disagree with. You would then go work at a company that is a union-shop, or even an industry that is not unionized.