5 ms·

Devuan Jessie 1.0 RC

38 points by ausjke 10y ago

mtanski 10y ago
Does anybody really care? It took a long enough to get an RC out (3 years).
- Sphax 10y ago
  Exactly. I hope this doesn't gain traction because last thing I want as someone just writing services is dealing with sysvinit
  - kasabali 10y ago
    You hope this doesn't gain traction because you're selfish? Devuan people aren't forcing you to write anything other than unit files. Support whatever you want and let other people freely developing their own distributions. because free software.
    - scrollaway 10y ago
      Watch your attitude. I'll take a bet that the person you're replying to contributes to foss far more than you do. If GP were "selfish" he wouldn't give a rat's arse about sysvinit in the first place, but in this community you clearly don't know the first thing about, there is such a thing as compatibility-friendly development. If a config you don't like is popular, you still end up having to support it; that is why all the popular python projects I wrote are still Python 2 compatible. If I wanted to have it my way, it'd all be Py3.6 only.
    - Sphax 10y ago
      They can do whatever they want, I just hope nobody follows their path because as a user sysvinit is objectively worse than systemd.
      - JdeBP 10y ago
        The nonsense in your thinking is your belief that the two choices are System 5 rc and systemd, and that therefore "their path" must be the former. You need not have even read the headlined page too far to have found https://devuan.org/os/init-freedom/ https://devuan.org/os/init-freedom/ which gives the lie to that. The Devuan people are quite wrong about Debian and OpenRC, but the point here is that they don't force upon you that binary choice any more than anyone else does and what they themselves outright tell you about their path contradicts your thinking. The whole it-is-a-binary-choice-between-systemd-and-system-5-rc idea is bunkum, a myth. It wasn't true on Debian, where the hoo-hah had votes amongst upstart, OpenRC, systemd, and System 5 rc. It wasn't true on Ubuntu and Fedora, which had both been using upstart for years before their respective switches to systemd. It isn't true on Devuan, per what is right in front of you stated by the Devuan people theirselves. It is discussed amongst several other myths at http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/ProSystemdAntiSystemd/ http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/ProSystemdAntiSystemd/ . You are propounding it.
jwn 10y ago
Anyone care to explain why SystemD is so contentious to the point it's worth forking Debian?
- Proven 10y ago
  Why? Google it.
- yuhong 10y ago
  Thinking about it, Kay Sievers is probably worse than Pottering. Of course, there is David Strauss too: https://www.agwa.name/blog/post/systemd_is_not_magic_security_dust https://www.agwa.name/blog/post/systemd_is_not_magic_securit...
- zitterbewegung 10y ago
  People who oppose SystemD dislike the fact that it takes on two much responsibilities and unneeded complexity as an init system. People who like it accept the added responsibilities and complexity because it has widespread adoption and works .
- agumonkey 10y ago
  They disapproved the development model like vacuuming too many linux parts, and the design, many people said you could replace systemd with other simpler and more unixy bits like djb rc (IIRC).
- feld 10y ago
  It's broken.
- JdeBP 10y ago
  Where have you been for the past 5 years? (-: (By the way, the mis-spelling "SystemD" has become a shibboleth over those years. Spell the name properly, lest you find yourself lumped in with the pot-stirrers and provocateurs by the rest of the world.) There was a whole hoo-hah in Debian over what to replace System 5 rc with: upstart, OpenRC, systemd, or something else. It got raised to the Technical Committee, sparked several resignations, went to a vote of the entire Debian Developer membership, and lasted for a long time. * http://jdebp.eu./FGA/debian-systemd-packaging-hoo-hah.html http://jdebp.eu./FGA/debian-systemd-packaging-hoo-hah.html Contrast Debian with Arch: * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11834348 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11834348
Proven 10y ago
I like it, but it's been a long wait. It seems only x64 at first. Devuan will do okay. Simple and stable distros will always have loyal users.
_delirium 10y ago
Isn't systemd still optional in Debian? I know there is worry that since it's the default, packages won't necessarily be well-tested without it, but afaik you can still remove it, just by installing sysvinit: http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Debian_Stretch http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Debian_Stretch
- eropple 10y ago
  I had the same reaction to the initial announcement of a fork, and it's taken three years to get to an RC. (The whole systemd tempest in the tiniest, most awkward of teacups never made a lick of sense to me--in no small part because, like 99% of people, the only time I ever interact with it is when I throw a service declaration out there, and Noah Kantrowitz's fantastic `poise-service` Chef cookbook abstracts that away for me.)
  - feld 10y ago
    I spent a day fighting to get systemd to properly handle bind mounts on boot. It doesn't reliably mount them and there are tons of blog and forum posts complaining about it. It also surprised us that it doesn't obey the "bg" flag for NFS. You have to use "nofail" instead. I have been informed today that a new MySQL cluster built at work on CentOS 7.3 doesn't reliably start MySQL on boot. We have none of these problems with our FreeBSD servers. systemd eats away at my time every week and I loathe it. It might not be a nuisance for endusers but it's a nightmare for sysadmins.
    - JdeBP 10y ago
      MySQL is a topic of discussion on the systemd-devel mailing list right now, coincidentally. * https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2017-April/038626.html https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2017-Ap...
      - feld 10y ago
        The finger pointing in this thread is astonishing
hazeii 10y ago
Having run Debian both with and without systemd, I'm keen to try this out. Every time I hit an issue with systemd, the fix seems to involve a script anyway so experience has pushed me back to sysvinit (admittedly I'm biased in having a preference for systems simple and transparent enough I can be reasonably sure I can fix them without recourse to outside help). Whether Devuan works better than Debian with the usual systemd removal remains to be seen, of course.
- orf 10y ago
  What problems have you hit?
JdeBP 10y ago
That is just the WWW site root. The announcement proper is at https://devuan.org/os/debian-fork/stable-candidate-announce-042017 https://devuan.org/os/debian-fork/stable-candidate-announce-... .

38 points by ausjke 10y ago

mtanski 10y ago

Does anybody really care? It took a long enough to get an RC out (3 years).

Sphax 10y ago
Exactly. I hope this doesn't gain traction because last thing I want as someone just writing services is dealing with sysvinit
- kasabali 10y ago
  You hope this doesn't gain traction because you're selfish? Devuan people aren't forcing you to write anything other than unit files. Support whatever you want and let other people freely developing their own distributions. because free software.
  - scrollaway 10y ago
    Watch your attitude. I'll take a bet that the person you're replying to contributes to foss far more than you do. If GP were "selfish" he wouldn't give a rat's arse about sysvinit in the first place, but in this community you clearly don't know the first thing about, there is such a thing as compatibility-friendly development. If a config you don't like is popular, you still end up having to support it; that is why all the popular python projects I wrote are still Python 2 compatible. If I wanted to have it my way, it'd all be Py3.6 only.
  - Sphax 10y ago
    They can do whatever they want, I just hope nobody follows their path because as a user sysvinit is objectively worse than systemd.
    - JdeBP 10y ago
      The nonsense in your thinking is your belief that the two choices are System 5 rc and systemd, and that therefore "their path" must be the former. You need not have even read the headlined page too far to have found https://devuan.org/os/init-freedom/ https://devuan.org/os/init-freedom/ which gives the lie to that. The Devuan people are quite wrong about Debian and OpenRC, but the point here is that they don't force upon you that binary choice any more than anyone else does and what they themselves outright tell you about their path contradicts your thinking. The whole it-is-a-binary-choice-between-systemd-and-system-5-rc idea is bunkum, a myth. It wasn't true on Debian, where the hoo-hah had votes amongst upstart, OpenRC, systemd, and System 5 rc. It wasn't true on Ubuntu and Fedora, which had both been using upstart for years before their respective switches to systemd. It isn't true on Devuan, per what is right in front of you stated by the Devuan people theirselves. It is discussed amongst several other myths at http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/ProSystemdAntiSystemd/ http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/ProSystemdAntiSystemd/ . You are propounding it.

jwn 10y ago

Anyone care to explain why SystemD is so contentious to the point it's worth forking Debian?

Proven 10y ago
Why? Google it.
yuhong 10y ago
Thinking about it, Kay Sievers is probably worse than Pottering. Of course, there is David Strauss too: https://www.agwa.name/blog/post/systemd_is_not_magic_security_dust https://www.agwa.name/blog/post/systemd_is_not_magic_securit...
zitterbewegung 10y ago
People who oppose SystemD dislike the fact that it takes on two much responsibilities and unneeded complexity as an init system. People who like it accept the added responsibilities and complexity because it has widespread adoption and works .
agumonkey 10y ago
They disapproved the development model like vacuuming too many linux parts, and the design, many people said you could replace systemd with other simpler and more unixy bits like djb rc (IIRC).
feld 10y ago
It's broken.
JdeBP 10y ago
Where have you been for the past 5 years? (-: (By the way, the mis-spelling "SystemD" has become a shibboleth over those years. Spell the name properly, lest you find yourself lumped in with the pot-stirrers and provocateurs by the rest of the world.) There was a whole hoo-hah in Debian over what to replace System 5 rc with: upstart, OpenRC, systemd, or something else. It got raised to the Technical Committee, sparked several resignations, went to a vote of the entire Debian Developer membership, and lasted for a long time. * http://jdebp.eu./FGA/debian-systemd-packaging-hoo-hah.html http://jdebp.eu./FGA/debian-systemd-packaging-hoo-hah.html Contrast Debian with Arch: * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11834348 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11834348

Proven 10y ago

I like it, but it's been a long wait. It seems only x64 at first. Devuan will do okay. Simple and stable distros will always have loyal users.

_delirium 10y ago

Isn't systemd still optional in Debian? I know there is worry that since it's the default, packages won't necessarily be well-tested without it, but afaik you can still remove it, just by installing sysvinit: http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Debian_Stretch http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Debian_Stretch

eropple 10y ago
I had the same reaction to the initial announcement of a fork, and it's taken three years to get to an RC. (The whole systemd tempest in the tiniest, most awkward of teacups never made a lick of sense to me--in no small part because, like 99% of people, the only time I ever interact with it is when I throw a service declaration out there, and Noah Kantrowitz's fantastic `poise-service` Chef cookbook abstracts that away for me.)
- feld 10y ago
  I spent a day fighting to get systemd to properly handle bind mounts on boot. It doesn't reliably mount them and there are tons of blog and forum posts complaining about it. It also surprised us that it doesn't obey the "bg" flag for NFS. You have to use "nofail" instead. I have been informed today that a new MySQL cluster built at work on CentOS 7.3 doesn't reliably start MySQL on boot. We have none of these problems with our FreeBSD servers. systemd eats away at my time every week and I loathe it. It might not be a nuisance for endusers but it's a nightmare for sysadmins.
  - JdeBP 10y ago
    MySQL is a topic of discussion on the systemd-devel mailing list right now, coincidentally. * https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2017-April/038626.html https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2017-Ap...
    - feld 10y ago
      The finger pointing in this thread is astonishing

hazeii 10y ago

Having run Debian both with and without systemd, I'm keen to try this out. Every time I hit an issue with systemd, the fix seems to involve a script anyway so experience has pushed me back to sysvinit (admittedly I'm biased in having a preference for systems simple and transparent enough I can be reasonably sure I can fix them without recourse to outside help). Whether Devuan works better than Debian with the usual systemd removal remains to be seen, of course.

orf 10y ago
What problems have you hit?

JdeBP 10y ago

That is just the WWW site root. The announcement proper is at https://devuan.org/os/debian-fork/stable-candidate-announce-042017 https://devuan.org/os/debian-fork/stable-candidate-announce-... .