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You seem to critically misunderstand democratic governance. In a union, as a member, you have a vote. In a corporation, as an employee, have no vote. That is n

You seem to critically misunderstand democratic governance. In a union, as a member, you have a vote. In a corporation, as an employee, have no vote. That is not to say there hauven't been corrupt unions. But generally speaking, as the OP said, a union is better than no union for employees.

chrisseaton 9y ago
What do you think of the example I said elsewhere where a union of mostly older workers votes for pay by seniority, and I'm a younger worker? The union has an incentive to get me to join, as it helps them get their pay by seniority, but it doesn't help me so they would want to hide that from me. I would be cautious of what they tell me, just like I would be cautious of what Uber tells me. A vote does nothing to help me if I'm down-voted. I'd be better off outside the union so it doesn't have more power to force pay by seniority, but they don't want me to know that. Hence the risk of propaganda. There's actually no corruption there, just their interests not being mine.
- Frondo 9y ago
  It seems like you're confusing having a say with simply getting what you want. If you don't like the seniority pay structure a union is pushing, you can go and try and talk to people to change the vote. Presumably there are a lot more younger workers than old (the way it tends to go everywhere), and you younguns could arrange the union in a way to benefit you now AND in the future. No union? Well, you're on your own, negotiating with people who see you as disposable and expendable (and they do--they'd be fools not to). Remember, in a democracy, a vote isn't a ticket to instantly get what you want, it's a way to ensure that you have some say even if it doesn't go your way every time.
  - chrisseaton 9y ago
    > you can go and try and talk to people to change the vote Or I could not join the union! Vote with my feet! Why would I want to give more power to a group of people trying to do something I don't want? You're saying join them, vote on it, and then when I lose the vote stick with it anyway because that's democracy. No, if I don't like something then I'm better off not affording them the right to say they're representing me. The union knows that, so they have an incentive to give me disinformation to get me to join. That's my original point - the union does potentially have incentives to give disinformation. Just like the company has. So I treat both with skepticism.
    - secstate 9y ago
      Healthy skepticism is important in ALL facets of life. You would join the union because the organization of labor gives you more power than individually. This is all pretty basic democratic theory here. Why would an independent state join a federation of states? Why not vote with it's feet by seceding when they don't get what they want out of the federation? Perhaps because the benefits outweigh the loss? Don't like seniority pay, but what about the four weeks base vacation and the negotiated pay scale that benefits younger workers? The point here is that companies are by design dictatorships (or at best oligarchies) and unionization is not the evil that 20th century robber barons told you they are. The UAW has done infinitely better things for labor in the US than most people could ever understand, even if their power led to a certain amount of corruption. Corruption of a democracy is at least marginally better than a dictatorship where you just hope the dictator is benevolent.
    - Apocryphon 9y ago
      Same way you can choose not to live in a country that makes democratic decisions you disagree with. You would then go work at a company that is a union-shop, or even an industry that is not unionized.

chrisseaton 9y ago

What do you think of the example I said elsewhere where a union of mostly older workers votes for pay by seniority, and I'm a younger worker? The union has an incentive to get me to join, as it helps them get their pay by seniority, but it doesn't help me so they would want to hide that from me. I would be cautious of what they tell me, just like I would be cautious of what Uber tells me. A vote does nothing to help me if I'm down-voted. I'd be better off outside the union so it doesn't have more power to force pay by seniority, but they don't want me to know that. Hence the risk of propaganda. There's actually no corruption there, just their interests not being mine.

Frondo 9y ago
It seems like you're confusing having a say with simply getting what you want. If you don't like the seniority pay structure a union is pushing, you can go and try and talk to people to change the vote. Presumably there are a lot more younger workers than old (the way it tends to go everywhere), and you younguns could arrange the union in a way to benefit you now AND in the future. No union? Well, you're on your own, negotiating with people who see you as disposable and expendable (and they do--they'd be fools not to). Remember, in a democracy, a vote isn't a ticket to instantly get what you want, it's a way to ensure that you have some say even if it doesn't go your way every time.
- chrisseaton 9y ago
  > you can go and try and talk to people to change the vote Or I could not join the union! Vote with my feet! Why would I want to give more power to a group of people trying to do something I don't want? You're saying join them, vote on it, and then when I lose the vote stick with it anyway because that's democracy. No, if I don't like something then I'm better off not affording them the right to say they're representing me. The union knows that, so they have an incentive to give me disinformation to get me to join. That's my original point - the union does potentially have incentives to give disinformation. Just like the company has. So I treat both with skepticism.
  - secstate 9y ago
    Healthy skepticism is important in ALL facets of life. You would join the union because the organization of labor gives you more power than individually. This is all pretty basic democratic theory here. Why would an independent state join a federation of states? Why not vote with it's feet by seceding when they don't get what they want out of the federation? Perhaps because the benefits outweigh the loss? Don't like seniority pay, but what about the four weeks base vacation and the negotiated pay scale that benefits younger workers? The point here is that companies are by design dictatorships (or at best oligarchies) and unionization is not the evil that 20th century robber barons told you they are. The UAW has done infinitely better things for labor in the US than most people could ever understand, even if their power led to a certain amount of corruption. Corruption of a democracy is at least marginally better than a dictatorship where you just hope the dictator is benevolent.
  - Apocryphon 9y ago
    Same way you can choose not to live in a country that makes democratic decisions you disagree with. You would then go work at a company that is a union-shop, or even an industry that is not unionized.