3 ms·

The problem is the inane assumption, which is now taken as a fact (without rigorous substantiation) that any male heavy gender ratio is a result of bias by whit

by nnfy 10y ago

The problem is the inane assumption, which is now taken as a fact (without rigorous substantiation) that any male heavy gender ratio is a result of bias by white men (not even necessarily the majority, mind you, we simply ignore fields where women are over represented). Not to mention the conflation of equality of opportunity with equality of achievement. In our society it has become a taboo to even consider that stratification by gender and/or race of achievement could possibly be related to group wide differences in behavior or ability. This is, ironically, causing immense bias in modern culture; but it seems bias is OK when its the en vogue kind.

67726e 10y ago
Where are the campaigns for female construction and sanitation worker parity? How about male nursing? HR? Nothing? Surely those fields would benefit from equal representation and male insight. Yet we have some kind of crusade against the tech industry. Oh well, I should just shut up since I'm a straight, white, male. I'm just oppressing you poor souls.
- swampangel 10y ago
  Programs for women in trades: http://www.careersinconstruction.ca/en/why-construction/opportunities-women/organizations-help-women-get-started-construction-trades http://www.careersinconstruction.ca/en/why-construction/oppo... Programs/orgs for men in nursing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14165427 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14165427 Tech is not unique, but for some of us in the industry it seems logical to focus our attention here.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
simonh 10y ago
Did you read the article? If it were just an assumption and no effort had been put into investigating the reasons for it and if/how those reasons can be addressed you would be right. From the article: "A new study from Microsoft sheds some light...gender stereotypes, few female role models, peer pressure and a lack of encouragement from parents and teachers largely to blame." So no assumptions are being made, this has been researched. This discussion is even about some of that research and it turns out girls are being discouraged by factors that are completely addressable. > we simply ignore fields where women are over represented Nobody's ignoring anything. My wife is a registered nurse here in the UK and encouraging men to get into nursing is definitely a thing. It turns out that men who do go into nursing have a significantly higher chance of promotion, which you'd hope would encourage them to and is it's own issue. But please, go off on a 'whataboutist' tangent as though the legitimate answer to every uncomfortable problem in the world is 'whatabout' some other problem.
- nnfy 10y ago
  Your comment concluded with the following: > If the imbalance is due to obstacles or prejudices faced by one gender over another then would you agree that is a moral issue that is more important for society to rectify However, as per the very quote you present >A new study from Microsoft sheds some light...gender stereotypes, few female role models, peer pressure and a lack of encouragement from parents and teachers largely to blame Which shows that the discouragement is far from the fault of prejudice from hostile white men in the industry. And this is exactly the kind of nonsensical assumption which is popular to make when this topic is discussed, as you've just done. And to further highlight your own bias, do you seriously mean to suggest that there is anywhere near as much interest in promoting gender equality in female dominated fields as the reverse?
  - simonh 10y ago
    Why are we talking about prejudice from hostile white men in the industry? Who brought up that topic? Are you aware of studies on that? Do you have any links to them? It seems like a complete digression from the article and the thread to this point, but if you really want to discuss it I'm game. What opinion on that do you feel like arbitrarily ascribing to me? > do you seriously mean to suggest I didn't suggest any such thing. Where are you getting this stuff? I presented what I think is a perfectly good test as to whether unequal gender representation is an issue and an example of one example of under-representation of men I'm aware of. What is it with making up opinions for me?
    - nnfy 10y ago
      As I've already quoted, you suggested that the imbalance may be coming from prejudice by men against women. In a subsequent response to a comment where I pointed out the disparity between "equality" initiatives in male and female dominant industries, you dismissed my argument as whataboutism with an anecdote about your wife and said that "nobody's ignoring anything".
      - simonh 10y ago
DanBC 10y ago
> mind you, we simply ignore fields where women are over represented). No, we don't. This point has been asked, and answered, so often (even on HN) that it probably falls under this bit of the guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html > Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them. EDIT there are dozens of these: 4 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5598659#5599061 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5598659#5599061 3 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7538789#7539557 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7538789#7539557 5 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3452516#3454185 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3452516#3454185 The same trite point - "what about women in nursing? Are they oppressing men" ignores the fact that nursing is generally a low status job and that men in nursing get paid more and promoted faster than women, which is not what happens to women in tech.
- nnfy 10y ago
  Perhaps the reason that there are "dozens" of "these" is that the question is far from settled. Perhaps this is a "classic flamewar" topic (something I'd love to see you substantiate) because of the smug dismissal of anyone who dares to question the narrative. My point is that the narrative is one sided. While I was not specifically referring to nursing, notice how you immediately presume that men are choosing not to go into nursing because of a lack of interest, not because of some kind of discrimination-yet we cannot even suggest this possibility about women in stem fields without being accused of trying to start flamewars?
  - DanBC 10y ago
    You're missing the point that in all those other threads someone asks this tired question, and then other people give multiple answers linking to all the programmes to get women into mining or construction or men into teaching or nursing - the question has been asked and answered, and the only reason it keeps being asked is because people keep asking the same question without bothering to do any searches at all for answers. > notice how you immediately presume that men are choosing not to go into nursing because of a lack of interest I haven't said that. Please don't put words in my mouth. Since you've done this it's obvious you're not interested in a good faith discussion. These threads follow a predictable pattern. Every single time people say "What about women in contruction?" or "what about men in teaching?", and every single time they do it in the same "AHA!" way. But, if they'd bothered to plug it into any fucking search engine they'd have seen that considerable effort is spent in these other trades to change the gender balance.

by nnfy 10y ago

67726e 10y ago

Where are the campaigns for female construction and sanitation worker parity? How about male nursing? HR? Nothing? Surely those fields would benefit from equal representation and male insight. Yet we have some kind of crusade against the tech industry. Oh well, I should just shut up since I'm a straight, white, male. I'm just oppressing you poor souls.

swampangel 10y ago
Programs for women in trades: http://www.careersinconstruction.ca/en/why-construction/opportunities-women/organizations-help-women-get-started-construction-trades http://www.careersinconstruction.ca/en/why-construction/oppo... Programs/orgs for men in nursing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14165427 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14165427 Tech is not unique, but for some of us in the industry it seems logical to focus our attention here.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

simonh 10y ago

Did you read the article? If it were just an assumption and no effort had been put into investigating the reasons for it and if/how those reasons can be addressed you would be right. From the article: "A new study from Microsoft sheds some light...gender stereotypes, few female role models, peer pressure and a lack of encouragement from parents and teachers largely to blame." So no assumptions are being made, this has been researched. This discussion is even about some of that research and it turns out girls are being discouraged by factors that are completely addressable. > we simply ignore fields where women are over represented Nobody's ignoring anything. My wife is a registered nurse here in the UK and encouraging men to get into nursing is definitely a thing. It turns out that men who do go into nursing have a significantly higher chance of promotion, which you'd hope would encourage them to and is it's own issue. But please, go off on a 'whataboutist' tangent as though the legitimate answer to every uncomfortable problem in the world is 'whatabout' some other problem.

nnfy 10y ago
Your comment concluded with the following: > If the imbalance is due to obstacles or prejudices faced by one gender over another then would you agree that is a moral issue that is more important for society to rectify However, as per the very quote you present >A new study from Microsoft sheds some light...gender stereotypes, few female role models, peer pressure and a lack of encouragement from parents and teachers largely to blame Which shows that the discouragement is far from the fault of prejudice from hostile white men in the industry. And this is exactly the kind of nonsensical assumption which is popular to make when this topic is discussed, as you've just done. And to further highlight your own bias, do you seriously mean to suggest that there is anywhere near as much interest in promoting gender equality in female dominated fields as the reverse?
- simonh 10y ago
  Why are we talking about prejudice from hostile white men in the industry? Who brought up that topic? Are you aware of studies on that? Do you have any links to them? It seems like a complete digression from the article and the thread to this point, but if you really want to discuss it I'm game. What opinion on that do you feel like arbitrarily ascribing to me? > do you seriously mean to suggest I didn't suggest any such thing. Where are you getting this stuff? I presented what I think is a perfectly good test as to whether unequal gender representation is an issue and an example of one example of under-representation of men I'm aware of. What is it with making up opinions for me?
  - nnfy 10y ago
    As I've already quoted, you suggested that the imbalance may be coming from prejudice by men against women. In a subsequent response to a comment where I pointed out the disparity between "equality" initiatives in male and female dominant industries, you dismissed my argument as whataboutism with an anecdote about your wife and said that "nobody's ignoring anything".
    - simonh 10y ago

DanBC 10y ago

> mind you, we simply ignore fields where women are over represented). No, we don't. This point has been asked, and answered, so often (even on HN) that it probably falls under this bit of the guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html > Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them. EDIT there are dozens of these: 4 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5598659#5599061 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5598659#5599061 3 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7538789#7539557 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7538789#7539557 5 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3452516#3454185 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3452516#3454185 The same trite point - "what about women in nursing? Are they oppressing men" ignores the fact that nursing is generally a low status job and that men in nursing get paid more and promoted faster than women, which is not what happens to women in tech.

nnfy 10y ago
Perhaps the reason that there are "dozens" of "these" is that the question is far from settled. Perhaps this is a "classic flamewar" topic (something I'd love to see you substantiate) because of the smug dismissal of anyone who dares to question the narrative. My point is that the narrative is one sided. While I was not specifically referring to nursing, notice how you immediately presume that men are choosing not to go into nursing because of a lack of interest, not because of some kind of discrimination-yet we cannot even suggest this possibility about women in stem fields without being accused of trying to start flamewars?
- DanBC 10y ago
  You're missing the point that in all those other threads someone asks this tired question, and then other people give multiple answers linking to all the programmes to get women into mining or construction or men into teaching or nursing - the question has been asked and answered, and the only reason it keeps being asked is because people keep asking the same question without bothering to do any searches at all for answers. > notice how you immediately presume that men are choosing not to go into nursing because of a lack of interest I haven't said that. Please don't put words in my mouth. Since you've done this it's obvious you're not interested in a good faith discussion. These threads follow a predictable pattern. Every single time people say "What about women in contruction?" or "what about men in teaching?", and every single time they do it in the same "AHA!" way. But, if they'd bothered to plug it into any fucking search engine they'd have seen that considerable effort is spent in these other trades to change the gender balance.