4 ms·

As a Russian who got university education in Russia and worked in both Russia and Canada, I can confirm that the reasons are both cultural and economic. First,

As a Russian who got university education in Russia and worked in both Russia and Canada, I can confirm that the reasons are both cultural and economic. First, for the big part Soviet Russia did not have a sizeable percentage of stay-at-home mothers: women were _expected_ to work, childcare was absolutely free, tight living conditions made multi-generational families, when retired grand-parents took care of children, a norm. It is also true that once young women chose to work they tried to maximize the earnings while not going to high-paying jobs traditionary considered male (think police or oil rig jobs in Siberia). It used to be law and business degrees, but now it means STEM.

paganel 10y ago
> women were _expected_ to work, I also grew up in Eastern Europe in the '80s, and this is what most of present-day Westerners don't get. And women were not supposed to hold only "women-related" jobs, for example my aunt was an industrial-crane operator.
- branchless 10y ago
  Socialist countries (whether in theory or in practice) tend to put more of an emphasis on equal rights.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - mynegation 10y ago
    Too bad you were downvoted, because it is actually true. People here probably confuse the good civil rights (which socialist countries in Eastern Europe did not have) with the equality of rights. USSR constitutions actually had an article of every citizen being guaranteed the right to work.
    - branchless 10y ago
      HN capitalism zealots care not for facts
      - sctb 10y ago
        We've already asked you to please stop posting ideological provocations, and we ban accounts that won't.
        branchless 10y ago
        You are mixing me up with someone else in your mod glory power haste. No responses to me in the past 50 days have the string "ideol" in it.
        sctb 10y ago
        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13325581 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13325581
        branchless 10y ago
        100 days, guess you have a better memory that me...!
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
JBlue42 10y ago
The "free child care" aspect I would think definitely helps. I have co-workers that are either lucky enough to have parents around to help or end up paying $2k/mo for pre-school for their very young kids. The kids had to be put on a waitlist before they were even born. I'm in the US, in Los Angeles.
vermontdevil 10y ago
Wouldn't your history play a factor in this? Esp the losses of men from WW1 and WW2?
- mynegation 10y ago
  It would, but it was always a thing, even between the wars and long after WW2.
- PerfectDlite 10y ago
  More like equal poverty for both men and women.
cat199 10y ago
Not actually been - so clearly you have more experience - but from observations of Russians I've seen I'd also say that: a) Intelligence is strongly valued in general, with women being no exception. There is no native faux-ironic 'im a math geek nurrrg so i have to be awkward because noone understands me' or 'look at the nerd what a dork' culture.. b) Russian women aren't afraid of being strong willed, and this is also valued c) Russian women seem to have a stronger notion of 'womanhood' and 'sisterhood' - similarly 'adulthood' and 'solidarity' are more generally valued - so hiding behind or supporting immaturity and selfishly infighting is less dominant/accepted d) The general cultural philosophy seems more (despite bad eggs as anywhere) a focus on personal excellence and service to community/society/nation, rather than a desire for personal gratification according to abstract self-selected individual preferences e) People call out BS when they see it, and this is considered a good thing, rather than 'being rude' or 'disrespecting everyones right to their own opinion' So while perhaps sexist jokes and activities are allowed in some areas, in other areas actually acting on them - or letting them get to you or not calling them out in others - is dishonourable, a personal 'cultural liability' (e.g. cause for being ostracised), and to be avoided. Of course there are exceptions everywhere, and this is observation and generalization - not an absolute statement of fact, also put with a bit of an ideal spin to underscore the argument.. I definitely would think the socialist economic system did a huge and perhaps bigger part to normalize women in the workplace and in these industries, but some of these cultural factors I think were pre existing and also help facilitate the pattern.. Some of these used to be more prevalent in US society as one example, but have been devalued over time.. So, if correct, perhaps the 'right mix' is support for women in these industries, but also a culture which values intellegence, integrity, community, and excellence rather than personal achievement for selfish reasons irrespective of the means..
- therpe1 10y ago
  You seem to have a very rosy idea of Russian society which is no doubt colored by your opinions of Western culture. At least the Russians I know would laugh at the idea of "calling out BS" or even "service to community." My own experience is simply that it's a culture where everybody is expected to work. Concepts like "house wife," "stay at home parent", "work-life balance", "trust-fund kid", "socialite" and "sabbatical" were completely alien until very, very recently. Everybody works. And while not everybody works hard, those that do, do it expecting a payoff. It's also important to understand that women were never not part of the workforce in Russia. It's hard to say for sure because the numbers were fudged but there are estimates that even in the 60s as many as 80% of women in the USSR were gainfully employed. (See this interesting CIA report for one estimate [1].) In the US, during the 60s, you had a female labor force participation rate of about 40%. It's not like Russian girls grow up being told they have to "lean in" -- it's literally laughable, like somebody telling you that you have to breathe. [1] https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/DOC_0000380594.pdf https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/DOC_0000380594....

paganel 10y ago

> women were _expected_ to work, I also grew up in Eastern Europe in the '80s, and this is what most of present-day Westerners don't get. And women were not supposed to hold only "women-related" jobs, for example my aunt was an industrial-crane operator.

branchless 10y ago
Socialist countries (whether in theory or in practice) tend to put more of an emphasis on equal rights.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- mynegation 10y ago
  Too bad you were downvoted, because it is actually true. People here probably confuse the good civil rights (which socialist countries in Eastern Europe did not have) with the equality of rights. USSR constitutions actually had an article of every citizen being guaranteed the right to work.
  - branchless 10y ago
    HN capitalism zealots care not for facts
    - sctb 10y ago
      We've already asked you to please stop posting ideological provocations, and we ban accounts that won't.
      - branchless 10y ago
        You are mixing me up with someone else in your mod glory power haste. No responses to me in the past 50 days have the string "ideol" in it.
        sctb 10y ago
        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13325581 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13325581
        branchless 10y ago
        100 days, guess you have a better memory that me...!
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

JBlue42 10y ago

The "free child care" aspect I would think definitely helps. I have co-workers that are either lucky enough to have parents around to help or end up paying $2k/mo for pre-school for their very young kids. The kids had to be put on a waitlist before they were even born. I'm in the US, in Los Angeles.

vermontdevil 10y ago

Wouldn't your history play a factor in this? Esp the losses of men from WW1 and WW2?

mynegation 10y ago
It would, but it was always a thing, even between the wars and long after WW2.
PerfectDlite 10y ago
More like equal poverty for both men and women.

cat199 10y ago

Not actually been - so clearly you have more experience - but from observations of Russians I've seen I'd also say that: a) Intelligence is strongly valued in general, with women being no exception. There is no native faux-ironic 'im a math geek nurrrg so i have to be awkward because noone understands me' or 'look at the nerd what a dork' culture.. b) Russian women aren't afraid of being strong willed, and this is also valued c) Russian women seem to have a stronger notion of 'womanhood' and 'sisterhood' - similarly 'adulthood' and 'solidarity' are more generally valued - so hiding behind or supporting immaturity and selfishly infighting is less dominant/accepted d) The general cultural philosophy seems more (despite bad eggs as anywhere) a focus on personal excellence and service to community/society/nation, rather than a desire for personal gratification according to abstract self-selected individual preferences e) People call out BS when they see it, and this is considered a good thing, rather than 'being rude' or 'disrespecting everyones right to their own opinion' So while perhaps sexist jokes and activities are allowed in some areas, in other areas actually acting on them - or letting them get to you or not calling them out in others - is dishonourable, a personal 'cultural liability' (e.g. cause for being ostracised), and to be avoided. Of course there are exceptions everywhere, and this is observation and generalization - not an absolute statement of fact, also put with a bit of an ideal spin to underscore the argument.. I definitely would think the socialist economic system did a huge and perhaps bigger part to normalize women in the workplace and in these industries, but some of these cultural factors I think were pre existing and also help facilitate the pattern.. Some of these used to be more prevalent in US society as one example, but have been devalued over time.. So, if correct, perhaps the 'right mix' is support for women in these industries, but also a culture which values intellegence, integrity, community, and excellence rather than personal achievement for selfish reasons irrespective of the means..

therpe1 10y ago
You seem to have a very rosy idea of Russian society which is no doubt colored by your opinions of Western culture. At least the Russians I know would laugh at the idea of "calling out BS" or even "service to community." My own experience is simply that it's a culture where everybody is expected to work. Concepts like "house wife," "stay at home parent", "work-life balance", "trust-fund kid", "socialite" and "sabbatical" were completely alien until very, very recently. Everybody works. And while not everybody works hard, those that do, do it expecting a payoff. It's also important to understand that women were never not part of the workforce in Russia. It's hard to say for sure because the numbers were fudged but there are estimates that even in the 60s as many as 80% of women in the USSR were gainfully employed. (See this interesting CIA report for one estimate [1].) In the US, during the 60s, you had a female labor force participation rate of about 40%. It's not like Russian girls grow up being told they have to "lean in" -- it's literally laughable, like somebody telling you that you have to breathe. [1] https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/DOC_0000380594.pdf https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/DOC_0000380594....