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my guess: a cultural and social value placed on STEM subjects. My personal theory is that young women in the West are less likely to get into tech because they

my guess: a cultural and social value placed on STEM subjects. My personal theory is that young women in the West are less likely to get into tech because they are seen as stuffy, the domain of greybeards and model train enthusiasts. Don't forget that people generally pick up their core interest in subjects at a young age where social value and coolness are some of the most important personal objectives (early teen years). I think the advent of the startup as being culturally associated with youth and creativity (i.e. that they're cool) is helping to rectify this image, but the startup industry has only recently gotten into mainstream culture. [edit: as tptacek notes, this is not an issue that extends to all of STEM, so I've updated my comment to reflect this. I've left in the highlight on Russia placing cultural value on STEM subjects because I think it's relevant, and that saying Russian culture places value in programming but ignoring the value of Maths, Science and other logical pursuits like Chess would be giving a partial and inaccurate picture. Also, I'm not Russian myself so this is purely an outside-looking-in perspective.]

tptacek 10y ago
I don't want to repeat this comment but worry that I'll have to: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14164886 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14164886 There is major disparity in tech, but it is not a problem common to all STEM fields.
- rimliu 10y ago
  The kind of work you do in STEM field is not the same across them.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    Mathematics is so thematically similar to CS that it used to house the CS departments. Please don't waste your time trying to conjure an argument about how CS somehow requires a different kind of brain than mathematics.
    - douche 10y ago
      In theory, CS is a cousin of mathematics, but in practice? Mathematics has almost nothing to do with the ordinary day-to-day code slinging and Agile bullshittery that software engineering has devolved into.
    - rimliu 10y ago
      I am not talking about different kind of brains. I am talking that maybe day to day work is quite different. I have no idea, what does mathematician's day look like, but I guess they don't have scope creep, arbitrary deadlines, bug reports from users and crunch times.
- beaconstudios 10y ago
  ah, thanks for re-posting that - when I started writing there were no other comments. I wasn't aware that this was solely a tech problem - I'll update my original comment to reflect this. I wonder how science or maths is viewed differently to technology in this regard - perhaps because those fields are much smaller in terms of people, and super-specialised, so are already appealing to a very small, highly passionate, self-selected group anyway? I can't help but think that part of the problem is the fact that tech wants to recruit a much broader range of people (to make the required numbers of people in industry, which is ever-growing) and thus the requirement to appeal to a more "average" person tends towards displaying the biases of the average person at the age of interest (ie. primarily teenage)?
intoverflow2 10y ago
> less keen to get into tech because they are seen as stuffy, the domain of greybeards and model train enthusiasts I find this kind of justification a pretty sexist view against women that they'd pick their entire career path on such frivolous details.
- macspoofing 10y ago
  >I find this kind of justification a pretty sexist view against women that they'd pick their entire career path on such frivolous details. Young adults graduate from college programs that have low chance of getting them ready for a job that could reasonably cover their tuition debt. Some of those kids will choose colleges where the tuition is far higher than a reasonably equivalent program at a state school. People are not rational agents. And it's not a gender thing either. There are plenty of men who will expand enormous amount of time, money, and energy to attempt to get into jobs or careers where they have a low probability of recouping their investment. This is pretty much the case for anybody who tries to make a living playing professional sports, or tries to make a living from acting, for example.
- archgoon 10y ago
  I think that 18 year olds in general (there are obviously exceptions) don't necessarily have a good idea of what they want to do. Looking to cultural norms, and asking "Can I see myself doing that" is probably not uncommon in the filtering process of selecting a major. This seems like a decent survey of the topic (major selection by incoming students), with some references to a few studies at the end. https://dus.psu.edu/mentor/2013/06/disconnect-choosing-major/ https://dus.psu.edu/mentor/2013/06/disconnect-choosing-major... 'In contrast with the evidence that first-year students are most likely making uninformed choices when determining a major, the common four-year curriculum path colleges and universities use assumes that students enter college prepared to make a decision regarding major and, ultimately, career path. Unfortunately, the reality is that students are most likely not developmentally prepared to do so.' There's nothing unique to women here.
- beaconstudios 10y ago
  if you'd read the whole paragraph, you'd see I'm talking about teenagers, and adopting interests. I think anyone familiar with how teenagers generally behave would agree that they are very concerned with social stance and "coolness". To be clear I don't think adult women make decisions in this way.
corpMaverick 10y ago
Exactly. Programmers are seen as a low status. Many of us did it despite that because we really liked it. Or perhaps we were so socially clueless that we didn't noticed it. Women in general are better at getting those social clues. Anyway, it turned out OK for us. But it would be better if we had more women colleagues.

tptacek 10y ago

I don't want to repeat this comment but worry that I'll have to: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14164886 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14164886 There is major disparity in tech, but it is not a problem common to all STEM fields.

rimliu 10y ago
The kind of work you do in STEM field is not the same across them.
- tptacek 10y ago
  Mathematics is so thematically similar to CS that it used to house the CS departments. Please don't waste your time trying to conjure an argument about how CS somehow requires a different kind of brain than mathematics.
  - douche 10y ago
    In theory, CS is a cousin of mathematics, but in practice? Mathematics has almost nothing to do with the ordinary day-to-day code slinging and Agile bullshittery that software engineering has devolved into.
  - rimliu 10y ago
    I am not talking about different kind of brains. I am talking that maybe day to day work is quite different. I have no idea, what does mathematician's day look like, but I guess they don't have scope creep, arbitrary deadlines, bug reports from users and crunch times.
beaconstudios 10y ago
ah, thanks for re-posting that - when I started writing there were no other comments. I wasn't aware that this was solely a tech problem - I'll update my original comment to reflect this. I wonder how science or maths is viewed differently to technology in this regard - perhaps because those fields are much smaller in terms of people, and super-specialised, so are already appealing to a very small, highly passionate, self-selected group anyway? I can't help but think that part of the problem is the fact that tech wants to recruit a much broader range of people (to make the required numbers of people in industry, which is ever-growing) and thus the requirement to appeal to a more "average" person tends towards displaying the biases of the average person at the age of interest (ie. primarily teenage)?

intoverflow2 10y ago

> less keen to get into tech because they are seen as stuffy, the domain of greybeards and model train enthusiasts I find this kind of justification a pretty sexist view against women that they'd pick their entire career path on such frivolous details.

macspoofing 10y ago
>I find this kind of justification a pretty sexist view against women that they'd pick their entire career path on such frivolous details. Young adults graduate from college programs that have low chance of getting them ready for a job that could reasonably cover their tuition debt. Some of those kids will choose colleges where the tuition is far higher than a reasonably equivalent program at a state school. People are not rational agents. And it's not a gender thing either. There are plenty of men who will expand enormous amount of time, money, and energy to attempt to get into jobs or careers where they have a low probability of recouping their investment. This is pretty much the case for anybody who tries to make a living playing professional sports, or tries to make a living from acting, for example.
archgoon 10y ago
I think that 18 year olds in general (there are obviously exceptions) don't necessarily have a good idea of what they want to do. Looking to cultural norms, and asking "Can I see myself doing that" is probably not uncommon in the filtering process of selecting a major. This seems like a decent survey of the topic (major selection by incoming students), with some references to a few studies at the end. https://dus.psu.edu/mentor/2013/06/disconnect-choosing-major/ https://dus.psu.edu/mentor/2013/06/disconnect-choosing-major... 'In contrast with the evidence that first-year students are most likely making uninformed choices when determining a major, the common four-year curriculum path colleges and universities use assumes that students enter college prepared to make a decision regarding major and, ultimately, career path. Unfortunately, the reality is that students are most likely not developmentally prepared to do so.' There's nothing unique to women here.
beaconstudios 10y ago
if you'd read the whole paragraph, you'd see I'm talking about teenagers, and adopting interests. I think anyone familiar with how teenagers generally behave would agree that they are very concerned with social stance and "coolness". To be clear I don't think adult women make decisions in this way.

corpMaverick 10y ago

Exactly. Programmers are seen as a low status. Many of us did it despite that because we really liked it. Or perhaps we were so socially clueless that we didn't noticed it. Women in general are better at getting those social clues. Anyway, it turned out OK for us. But it would be better if we had more women colleagues.