14 ms·

I don't think anyone believed it was anything but a business decision so this is not really shocking. Operating systems are hard, drop Windows and sell your so

by Paul_S 10y ago

I don't think anyone believed it was anything but a business decision so this is not really shocking. Operating systems are hard, drop Windows and sell your software on Linux. We all know it's inevitable in the long run.

GiorgioG 10y ago
Windows 7 was end of life'd in January of 2015. I don't think this is some kind of evil business decision Microsoft made. Switching to Linux isn't a magical way to ensure your OS version will be supported for the rest of eternity. Linux is great for many things, but give the Microsoft/Windows is evil thing a rest.
- youdontknowtho 10y ago
  You're right. Windows for Workgroups 3.11 isn't getting patches for Kaby Lake either. Those evil bastards.
  - gambiting 10y ago
    The difference is that according to this: https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10&qpcustomd=0 https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share... Windows 7 still has twice as large install base as Windows 10. It's literally nothing other than MS stopping support for 7 because 10 is out - imagine the outrage if Tesla stopped supporting an older model S because a new one was out.
    - filmor 10y ago
      The main difference is that here Microsoft arbitrarily put a check for the cpuid in while Kaby Lake is probably as compatible with Windows 7 as any previous 64bit Intel CPU. Windows 3.11 doesn't have this, if you have any i386 compatible CPU it will run just fine and will happily apply all available patches.
      - bobmno 10y ago
        It checked the DOS version and errored out on non-MS implementations of DOS.
      - Chaebixi 10y ago
        > The main difference is that here Microsoft arbitrarily put a check for the cpuid in while Kaby Lake is probably as compatible with Windows 7 as any previous 64bit Intel CPU. Windows 3.11 doesn't have this, if you have any i386 compatible CPU it will run just fine and will happily apply all available patches. IIRC, the compatibility problems with the new processors are processor drivers and power management. However, the dumb thing is that Microsoft already made the engineering effort to support those things, since they used to support Windows 7 on the now-unsupported architectures. Now they're taking it away to push Windows 10 some more.
- philipov 10y ago
  The evil business decision was to make Windows 10 a steaming pile of malware. Everything else follows from that. If running Windows 10 weren't such a big security risk, end-of-lifing Windows 7 and 8 wouldn't be a problem.
  - BEEdwards 10y ago
    OSX is sending just as much telemetry back to Apple, but it's less hipster to call their OS a steaming pile of malware...
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - AnOscelot 10y ago
      I think MacOS gives you an off switch for the telemetry. I know iOS does. Not only does iOS give you an easy way to turn it off, it will also show you the raw data being sent to Apple. Microsoft does neither. You can't turn it off easily if you're not on Enterprise / Education, and the data being sent is encrypted.
      - blibble 10y ago
        the enterprise edition has telemetry too, which can't be completely disabled
    - oceanswave 10y ago
      Citation needed. Windows 10 "Basic" level telemetry: https://technet.microsoft.com/itpro/windows/configure/basic-level-windows-diagnostic-events-and-fields https://technet.microsoft.com/itpro/windows/configure/basic-... macOS Sierra Privacy policy and analytics: https://www.apple.com/privacy/privacy-policy/ https://www.apple.com/privacy/privacy-policy/ https://support.apple.com/kb/PH25654?locale=en_US&viewlocale=en_US https://support.apple.com/kb/PH25654?locale=en_US&viewlocale...
      - cptskippy 10y ago
- AlexandrB 10y ago
  They're also not supporting Windows 8 which is not EOL yet.
moron4hire 10y ago
Let's put something into perspective. Linux is 25 years old. If Linux hasn't supplanted Windows on the desktop by now, then there is no indication it ever will. And don't get me wrong, I think Linux is a fine OS and use it daily (lately more often than Windows). But "replace Windows" is not a static target, and the organizations in charge of promoting Linux as a desktop OS have nothing now or in the works that can compete with the corporate Juggernaut of Microsoft. Selling software is hard, especially on Linux. We tell people FOSS means free as in freedom, but the vast majority of even people who parrot that line thinks it means free as in beer. As a software vendor, you'd be killing yourself to ignore 90% of the market.
- iamNumber4 10y ago
  yes let's put it into perspective. Yes the Linux kernel was developed ~25 years ago. Linux is not an operating system it is a kernel. Gnu/Linux distributions have several desktops, depending on what part of the world you are from, etc... Linux hasn't hit the desktop market because you can not just go to a store and buy one. The problem is availability, the Average Consumer does not what to buy something, and then alter or modify the product as soon as they get home. To most people computers are entertainment devices. They just want it to work. They just want to buy one. The reason that Microsoft, Apple, and even Google (chrome books, android) have hit the market share is because they realized the formula of be a hardware company first, software second. Yes Microsoft has a cartel on Hardware, as they got all vendor companies to make hardware for them. It's like MacDonalds being a real estate company and not a burger flipping company. They take their money off the top of the hardware vendors. They have created a ecosystem that is endless cycle of upgrade. The Cost of ownership of a Microsoft ecosystem is quite expensive over the long term. They have developed a system of hooking users with the home/personal lines, that have forced business to purchase their products. I should also point out that, Android (Linux kernel) has the largest market share at the time of writing this. Personal computers are changing to things that fit into pockets. The average consumer is not going to want a desktop or a laptop anymore. As that their use case of just being entertainment devices. If Gnu/Linux wants to compete for smaller the professional,Gamer,power user desktop/laptop markets. There needs to be a Hardware company to champion it, (Like Dell) that will put it front and center at the Wal-marts/best-buy's/Fry's of the world. So that we can just go buy one. Remember the superior product is a matter of perspective. Which is the superior product? The product which is perfect, barely breaks, and is fixed quickly if it does. Or the product that has flaws, multiple ways to break, crash, etc... only lasts a few years. It all depends. To the salesman the one that breaks of course, so we can sell more of them. If it does not break I can only sell it once. So... long rant short; until we can just drive to the store and buy a Linux PC off the shelf and start using it . There will be poor market share, and we'll fighting to FUD at the work place.
simonh 10y ago
Nonsense. It's perfectly plain that the message passing micro kernel architecture and superior userland design of HURD will lead to it's inevitable supremacy.
leeter 10y ago
It's both actually, MS is currently supporting approximately 7 OS flavors of windows as best I can tell, 5 of which are Windows 10 alone (7 SP1, 8.1, 10 RS1, 10 RS2, 10 CBB, 10 LTSB, 10 RS3). That's a lot of OS's to deal with and be ensuring that 'It just works'. If anything I would say this is a commentary on AMD and Intel's ability to make compatible processors than just on MS' ability to support. Unfortunately new processors have Errata and can be buggy pieces of garbage as Ryzen just showed with a bug in its FMA3 implementation that would cause a GP fault. MS has to test and handle these issues for every single supported CPU. To do this they have massive labs of machines with common CPU/Mobo combos that they deploy and run tests on with every single patch and build. Not surprisingly this isn't cheap and if you have to support effectively 7 different OSes you're going to make some cost decisions. I suspect this really was a decision to focus lab hardware and development time on the latest OS versions that can more easily share the errata patches than anything nefarious.
- fredsted 10y ago
  There's a lot more versions. There's Server, IoT, Embedded, RT. Following your argument, they'd have to be tested as well. A few versions more of Windows 7 and 8 doesn't seem like the huge budget breaker, it just takes more time. I don't think they'd use a dedicated machine for each and every version, you can use the same machines and just change the drives or use NetBoot or whatever. The real issue here is that they want users to upgrade to Windows 10.
  - cptskippy 10y ago
    > There's a lot more versions. There's Server, IoT, Embedded, RT. > A few versions more of Windows 7 and 8 doesn't seem like the huge budget breaker, There's a lot of versions of Windows 7 and Windows 8 as well. Windows 7 had at least 6 SKUs. > I don't think they'd use a dedicated machine for each and every version, you can use the same machines and just change the drives or use NetBoot or whatever. You're completely underestimating the scale necessary to carry out proper testing and validation.
    - fredsted 10y ago
CJefferson 10y ago
If I was running ubuntu on the release date of windows 7, it would have run out of service in 2013. Windows 7 still gets updates, you just can't install it on a new machine. No version of Linux released in 2009 is still (a) supported, or (b) supports Kaby Lake.
- Chaebixi 10y ago
  The thing with Linux is that you can set up a new installation with a new release that works more-or-less like an arbitrary older release. You can't really do that with Windows, so the situation isn't very comparable. I wouldn't mind Windows 10 if I could switch off every new crappy feature they've pushed into it (e.g. the phone-home stuff and ads), and trust Microsoft to respect my decisions.
  - CJefferson 10y ago
    That differs greatly in my experience -- in the time I've been using ubuntu I've lost gnome 2 and been forced onto Unity, and had to learn systemd. The phone home stuff is indeed a seperate, and very serious, problem.
    - Chaebixi 10y ago
      > That differs greatly in my experience -- in the time I've been using ubuntu I've lost gnome 2 and been forced onto Unity, and had to learn systemd. That's only true if you're wedded to a distribution, though. There's always the option to switch to one that doesn't use systemd, and recreate your favored experience there. Also, was it possible to install Gnome on Ubuntu if you didn't want to use Unity? I never used that distribution myself.
    - squarefoot 10y ago
      Unity was an ill advised choice and it looks like they're finally dumping it. Anyway keep in mind that Ubuntu has a company behind it pulling strings, so it's pretty normal for them to reduce costs by not supporting older architectures. For older/different architectures the choice should be Debian or other community backed distros. https://www.debian.org/ports/ https://www.debian.org/ports/ Just to get an idea.
72deluxe 10y ago
But there's no COM on Linux. How can I magically port my software across if I do not have access to all the wonders of COM, eg. MS XML and have to rewrite my software from scratch? At least with Microsoft you have support for APIs for a long long time; eg. MFC is old but it is still supported. With Linux you are on your own. So "get your software on Linux" is easy to say but in the real world it isn't so easy.
- poizan42 10y ago
  Use winelib if you want a quick and dirty port
  - cptskippy 10y ago
    That's very dismissive.
    - poizan42 10y ago
      Why? I was providing a solution. There's nothing wrong with using winelib if you want to port Windows software to linux.
      - cptskippy 10y ago
        There isn't anything wrong with using wine but tossing it out there as the cure-all for Windows based applications is wreck less. I haven't played with wine in quite some time but it has a track record of "working" rather than working.
izacus 10y ago
> Operating systems are hard, drop Windows and sell your software on Linux. We all know it's inevitable in the long run. Soo... how do I run Linux on a new Dell XPS or a Surface Book without updating kernel to newest 4.x branch? Because last I check Linux forced me to update to new version (including userspace since new kernels weren't compatible with old userspace) to run on new hardware as well.
- Zaak 10y ago
  Do you have a link to info about that kernel/userspace incompatibility? I thought Linus' mantra was "we don't break userspace".

by Paul_S 10y ago

GiorgioG 10y ago

Windows 7 was end of life'd in January of 2015. I don't think this is some kind of evil business decision Microsoft made. Switching to Linux isn't a magical way to ensure your OS version will be supported for the rest of eternity. Linux is great for many things, but give the Microsoft/Windows is evil thing a rest.

youdontknowtho 10y ago
You're right. Windows for Workgroups 3.11 isn't getting patches for Kaby Lake either. Those evil bastards.
- gambiting 10y ago
  The difference is that according to this: https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10&qpcustomd=0 https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share... Windows 7 still has twice as large install base as Windows 10. It's literally nothing other than MS stopping support for 7 because 10 is out - imagine the outrage if Tesla stopped supporting an older model S because a new one was out.
  - filmor 10y ago
    The main difference is that here Microsoft arbitrarily put a check for the cpuid in while Kaby Lake is probably as compatible with Windows 7 as any previous 64bit Intel CPU. Windows 3.11 doesn't have this, if you have any i386 compatible CPU it will run just fine and will happily apply all available patches.
    - bobmno 10y ago
      It checked the DOS version and errored out on non-MS implementations of DOS.
    - Chaebixi 10y ago
      > The main difference is that here Microsoft arbitrarily put a check for the cpuid in while Kaby Lake is probably as compatible with Windows 7 as any previous 64bit Intel CPU. Windows 3.11 doesn't have this, if you have any i386 compatible CPU it will run just fine and will happily apply all available patches. IIRC, the compatibility problems with the new processors are processor drivers and power management. However, the dumb thing is that Microsoft already made the engineering effort to support those things, since they used to support Windows 7 on the now-unsupported architectures. Now they're taking it away to push Windows 10 some more.
philipov 10y ago
The evil business decision was to make Windows 10 a steaming pile of malware. Everything else follows from that. If running Windows 10 weren't such a big security risk, end-of-lifing Windows 7 and 8 wouldn't be a problem.
- BEEdwards 10y ago
  OSX is sending just as much telemetry back to Apple, but it's less hipster to call their OS a steaming pile of malware...
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - AnOscelot 10y ago
    I think MacOS gives you an off switch for the telemetry. I know iOS does. Not only does iOS give you an easy way to turn it off, it will also show you the raw data being sent to Apple. Microsoft does neither. You can't turn it off easily if you're not on Enterprise / Education, and the data being sent is encrypted.
    - blibble 10y ago
      the enterprise edition has telemetry too, which can't be completely disabled
  - oceanswave 10y ago
    Citation needed. Windows 10 "Basic" level telemetry: https://technet.microsoft.com/itpro/windows/configure/basic-level-windows-diagnostic-events-and-fields https://technet.microsoft.com/itpro/windows/configure/basic-... macOS Sierra Privacy policy and analytics: https://www.apple.com/privacy/privacy-policy/ https://www.apple.com/privacy/privacy-policy/ https://support.apple.com/kb/PH25654?locale=en_US&viewlocale=en_US https://support.apple.com/kb/PH25654?locale=en_US&viewlocale...
    - cptskippy 10y ago
AlexandrB 10y ago
They're also not supporting Windows 8 which is not EOL yet.

moron4hire 10y ago

Let's put something into perspective. Linux is 25 years old. If Linux hasn't supplanted Windows on the desktop by now, then there is no indication it ever will. And don't get me wrong, I think Linux is a fine OS and use it daily (lately more often than Windows). But "replace Windows" is not a static target, and the organizations in charge of promoting Linux as a desktop OS have nothing now or in the works that can compete with the corporate Juggernaut of Microsoft. Selling software is hard, especially on Linux. We tell people FOSS means free as in freedom, but the vast majority of even people who parrot that line thinks it means free as in beer. As a software vendor, you'd be killing yourself to ignore 90% of the market.

iamNumber4 10y ago
yes let's put it into perspective. Yes the Linux kernel was developed ~25 years ago. Linux is not an operating system it is a kernel. Gnu/Linux distributions have several desktops, depending on what part of the world you are from, etc... Linux hasn't hit the desktop market because you can not just go to a store and buy one. The problem is availability, the Average Consumer does not what to buy something, and then alter or modify the product as soon as they get home. To most people computers are entertainment devices. They just want it to work. They just want to buy one. The reason that Microsoft, Apple, and even Google (chrome books, android) have hit the market share is because they realized the formula of be a hardware company first, software second. Yes Microsoft has a cartel on Hardware, as they got all vendor companies to make hardware for them. It's like MacDonalds being a real estate company and not a burger flipping company. They take their money off the top of the hardware vendors. They have created a ecosystem that is endless cycle of upgrade. The Cost of ownership of a Microsoft ecosystem is quite expensive over the long term. They have developed a system of hooking users with the home/personal lines, that have forced business to purchase their products. I should also point out that, Android (Linux kernel) has the largest market share at the time of writing this. Personal computers are changing to things that fit into pockets. The average consumer is not going to want a desktop or a laptop anymore. As that their use case of just being entertainment devices. If Gnu/Linux wants to compete for smaller the professional,Gamer,power user desktop/laptop markets. There needs to be a Hardware company to champion it, (Like Dell) that will put it front and center at the Wal-marts/best-buy's/Fry's of the world. So that we can just go buy one. Remember the superior product is a matter of perspective. Which is the superior product? The product which is perfect, barely breaks, and is fixed quickly if it does. Or the product that has flaws, multiple ways to break, crash, etc... only lasts a few years. It all depends. To the salesman the one that breaks of course, so we can sell more of them. If it does not break I can only sell it once. So... long rant short; until we can just drive to the store and buy a Linux PC off the shelf and start using it . There will be poor market share, and we'll fighting to FUD at the work place.

simonh 10y ago

Nonsense. It's perfectly plain that the message passing micro kernel architecture and superior userland design of HURD will lead to it's inevitable supremacy.

leeter 10y ago

It's both actually, MS is currently supporting approximately 7 OS flavors of windows as best I can tell, 5 of which are Windows 10 alone (7 SP1, 8.1, 10 RS1, 10 RS2, 10 CBB, 10 LTSB, 10 RS3). That's a lot of OS's to deal with and be ensuring that 'It just works'. If anything I would say this is a commentary on AMD and Intel's ability to make compatible processors than just on MS' ability to support. Unfortunately new processors have Errata and can be buggy pieces of garbage as Ryzen just showed with a bug in its FMA3 implementation that would cause a GP fault. MS has to test and handle these issues for every single supported CPU. To do this they have massive labs of machines with common CPU/Mobo combos that they deploy and run tests on with every single patch and build. Not surprisingly this isn't cheap and if you have to support effectively 7 different OSes you're going to make some cost decisions. I suspect this really was a decision to focus lab hardware and development time on the latest OS versions that can more easily share the errata patches than anything nefarious.

fredsted 10y ago
There's a lot more versions. There's Server, IoT, Embedded, RT. Following your argument, they'd have to be tested as well. A few versions more of Windows 7 and 8 doesn't seem like the huge budget breaker, it just takes more time. I don't think they'd use a dedicated machine for each and every version, you can use the same machines and just change the drives or use NetBoot or whatever. The real issue here is that they want users to upgrade to Windows 10.
- cptskippy 10y ago
  > There's a lot more versions. There's Server, IoT, Embedded, RT. > A few versions more of Windows 7 and 8 doesn't seem like the huge budget breaker, There's a lot of versions of Windows 7 and Windows 8 as well. Windows 7 had at least 6 SKUs. > I don't think they'd use a dedicated machine for each and every version, you can use the same machines and just change the drives or use NetBoot or whatever. You're completely underestimating the scale necessary to carry out proper testing and validation.
  - fredsted 10y ago

CJefferson 10y ago

If I was running ubuntu on the release date of windows 7, it would have run out of service in 2013. Windows 7 still gets updates, you just can't install it on a new machine. No version of Linux released in 2009 is still (a) supported, or (b) supports Kaby Lake.

Chaebixi 10y ago
The thing with Linux is that you can set up a new installation with a new release that works more-or-less like an arbitrary older release. You can't really do that with Windows, so the situation isn't very comparable. I wouldn't mind Windows 10 if I could switch off every new crappy feature they've pushed into it (e.g. the phone-home stuff and ads), and trust Microsoft to respect my decisions.
- CJefferson 10y ago
  That differs greatly in my experience -- in the time I've been using ubuntu I've lost gnome 2 and been forced onto Unity, and had to learn systemd. The phone home stuff is indeed a seperate, and very serious, problem.
  - Chaebixi 10y ago
    > That differs greatly in my experience -- in the time I've been using ubuntu I've lost gnome 2 and been forced onto Unity, and had to learn systemd. That's only true if you're wedded to a distribution, though. There's always the option to switch to one that doesn't use systemd, and recreate your favored experience there. Also, was it possible to install Gnome on Ubuntu if you didn't want to use Unity? I never used that distribution myself.
  - squarefoot 10y ago
    Unity was an ill advised choice and it looks like they're finally dumping it. Anyway keep in mind that Ubuntu has a company behind it pulling strings, so it's pretty normal for them to reduce costs by not supporting older architectures. For older/different architectures the choice should be Debian or other community backed distros. https://www.debian.org/ports/ https://www.debian.org/ports/ Just to get an idea.

72deluxe 10y ago

But there's no COM on Linux. How can I magically port my software across if I do not have access to all the wonders of COM, eg. MS XML and have to rewrite my software from scratch? At least with Microsoft you have support for APIs for a long long time; eg. MFC is old but it is still supported. With Linux you are on your own. So "get your software on Linux" is easy to say but in the real world it isn't so easy.

poizan42 10y ago
Use winelib if you want a quick and dirty port
- cptskippy 10y ago
  That's very dismissive.
  - poizan42 10y ago
    Why? I was providing a solution. There's nothing wrong with using winelib if you want to port Windows software to linux.
    - cptskippy 10y ago
      There isn't anything wrong with using wine but tossing it out there as the cure-all for Windows based applications is wreck less. I haven't played with wine in quite some time but it has a track record of "working" rather than working.

izacus 10y ago

> Operating systems are hard, drop Windows and sell your software on Linux. We all know it's inevitable in the long run. Soo... how do I run Linux on a new Dell XPS or a Surface Book without updating kernel to newest 4.x branch? Because last I check Linux forced me to update to new version (including userspace since new kernels weren't compatible with old userspace) to run on new hardware as well.

Zaak 10y ago
Do you have a link to info about that kernel/userspace incompatibility? I thought Linus' mantra was "we don't break userspace".