11 ms·

Introducing Token

488 points by samscully 9y ago

AroundTheBlock_ 9y ago
Because it's not immediately clear, this is a project developed by Coinbase, but under its own brand. The demo, which is available on the Apple Store and Google Play store uses TestNet Ether for now.
- lacker 9y ago
  Yeah, I found it confusing that the ownership of the project was nowhere mentioned on tokenbrowser.com. The code seems to be copyrighted by "Token Browser, Inc" so I'm curious what sort of entity that is, whether it's just owned by Coinbase or what. https://github.com/tokenbrowser/token-app-js/blob/master/LICENCE https://github.com/tokenbrowser/token-app-js/blob/master/LIC...
- j_s 9y ago
  Yes; this post may have finally gotten traction thanks to yesterday's discussion of the nearly-equivalent "actual Ether" Status project. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14161695 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14161695
_pdp_ 9y ago
Maybe I am not getting it but ethereum is way to complex to make it successful - and because it is decentralised it looks deeply fragmented. As I said, I am probably not getting it.
- AroundTheBlock_ 9y ago
  It is very complex, but also very, very early. No one is pretending that any of this is production ready or user friendly. These are just glimpses into what is being worked on for over the next 5-10 years
- danielpatrick 9y ago
  I'll add some color here. The complexity you're referring to may be the runtime? It is more complex than, say, Bitcoin because it has for most purposes a Turing complete language baked into the protocol. Bitcoin is a blockchain that forms consensus on the state of a specific implementation of a data structure (somewhat arbitrarily, a list of transactions) and it has a very limited set of operations to manipulate that data. Coming to distributed consensus on a transaction ledger is ultra-useful, as we have come to know. But there may be other data structures that may be useful for distributed consensus as well. Rather than building a blockchain for each one, why not build that flexibility into one protocol so the developer can choose? Ethereum is a blockchain that forms consensus on the state of a more general set of data types, with a Turing complete language to operate on the data. More complex? Yes. But the hope is that this flexibility drives a rich developer ecosystem, where innovation can happen within the network, rather than having to build your own network from scratch. As for decentralization leading to fragmentation? This is a feature, not a bug. It is the feature that allowed Ethereum to grow in tangent with a thousand other blockchain mechanisms. Maybe fragmentation will bring its demise, but it as breath of fresh air from our rapidly consolidating tech industry.
- terhechte 9y ago
  It is indeed looking very complex, but that's because (as others have pointed out) it is still rather young. Ethereum itself is being implemented with a phased roadmap: Frontier, Homestead, Metropolis, Serenity. We're still in the Homestead phase, and Metropolis (the next phase) will, for example include "a relatively full-featured user interface for non-technical users" [1]. But even this is probably still years away from simple usability for an average user. Also, remember that understanding happens in layers. The web with all its components also once looked very alien to all of us (DNS, REST, Server, Client, Browser, FTP, Gopher, P2P, HTML, Javascript, the list goes on). We just take it all for granted because we grew up while layers were piled on top. But if you can't even tell a client from a server, then understanding how a modern web app works will also take a long time and will look way too complex. This is not to say that ethereum will be as revolutionary as the web, just that simplicity can easier grow out of complexity than complexity can grow out of simplicity [1] https://blog.ethereum.org/2015/03/03/ethereum-launch-process/ https://blog.ethereum.org/2015/03/03/ethereum-launch-process...
  - aaron-lebo 9y ago
    Not to be dense, but don't understand your argument. You just listed how Ethereum is a sizable tech stack and still growing and then suggest that it will eventually get simpler - after it has more users, after there is technical lock-in. That seems contradictory to many working projects. Perhaps it is complex? It's a reinvention of almost the entire web stack.
    - terhechte 9y ago
      Sorry, I could have been more elaborate. Let me try to give some examples of what I mean: - A computer is quite complicated: It requires electricity, gates, transistors, boolean logic, a CPU, machine code, a machine code low level boot loader, an operating system, a windowing server, an application framework. And finally, within the application framework we can build something like Notepad that is really trivial and simple to understand for the average user. A calculator is much simpler (given the whole tech stack), but trying to enter text there (like in notepad) would be much more difficult (if it had a stack, you could enter the hex value of each char, making up words). In this case, the beautiful simplicity that defines modern computing can only work because we first had to build and invent all the layers below it. - A web browser / server is also, again, really complicated. The end result is that users go to google.com, enter a search term, and receive the results. Without the additional complexity of MapReduce, millions of servers, AI, etc, Google search wouldn't be so simple. Ethereum is still in the phase where complex technology is added so that finally simple layers can be put on top. Raiden [1] is an example of that: As a user, I want to pay something immediately. Looking at a block explorer after payment with a transaction ID to see when there're enough blockchain confirmations is very complex. At some point this will be the technology under the hood as transactions will happen in near-realtime. Then, no user has to even understand the transaction, transaction time and confirmations. Ethereum is indeed re-inventing much of the current web stack, but this happens, of course, in the context of decentralised, trustless, open computing. [1] https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/lightning-fast-raiden-network-coming-to-ethereum-blockchains-1471030245/ https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/lightning-fast-raiden-n...
- drcode 9y ago
  I can tell you that I'm building a proof-of-concept medical provider registry on ethereum right now for a US state in my free time and the entire registry with a rather deep security model and tons of functionality is a total of 230 lines of smart contract code (this represents the "server side" of the registry) It'll probably be around 500 lines if it reaches production. I bet you the next smallest state-level medical provider registry right now is probably 50,000 lines of server-side code. How does this make ethereum too complex to be useful?
  - _pdp_ 9y ago
    I would love to see that. Is it public?
aaron-lebo 9y ago
I would find your pitch much more interesting if you didn't go from "look at this very cool technology" to "look how we're changing the world for the better for these poor people in Africa". Be realistic. How many Sub-Saharan Africans are using Token or working on it right now? You're first-world devs working on first-world tech and wrapping it up in humanitarian terms because it makes you more attractive. It's kind of exploitative. It's all about money at the end of the day, isn't it? I apologize for the rant. Just had a semester of classes on faith and development and law and development and this stuff is often very complex and a type of unintentional colonialism often runs through it. "Hey, check out these people! Check out how much they need our help! Wouldn't things be so much better if we did X for them?" In many cases, yes, but in a lot of ways it is impossible for people who aren't on the ground to properly understand culture, context, and needs. Does the team have anyone on the ground? Is this informed by research on the topic? From a less critical perspective, a portion of the site dedicated to such research (and thus informing the goals) would be really cool and useful.
- Freak_NL 9y ago
  > It's all about money at the end of the day, isn't it? I'm still having a hard time seeing any cryptocurrency based application as anything but an attempt to facilitate speculation based on that currency's value. There seem to be so many perverse incentives inherent to this technology that I automatically find any idealistic application of it suspect. Perhaps this is overly cynical, but all cryptocurrencies seem to boil down to a system that would immensely benefit whoever came up with that particular currency (by virtue of having mined all the early blocks before going public or whatever) and whoever invested early if it ever took off.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    > Perhaps this is overly cynical Probably not, especially not for all the coins started after bitcoin took off. Bitcoin itself may be an exception but without a reliable genesis story it's impossible to know for sure.
    - 9y ago
fabiosussetto 9y ago
Are they using some implementation of the Ethereum light client protocol? Last time I checked it wasn't available yet: https://github.com/ethereum/wiki/wiki/Light-client-protocol https://github.com/ethereum/wiki/wiki/Light-client-protocol If they are using the standard protocol then how do they connect to the Ethereum network? Do they use their servers as proxy to the network? Because if it's so, that would defeat the whole point to me.
- AroundTheBlock_ 9y ago
  No, they're not using the Light Client yet for that very reason, but easily could in the future. But in any case, no crypto wallets are light clients. All Bitcoin wallets, for example, use servers because it's impossible to do Bitcoin light clients (at least, they haven't found a solution yet). This app is more about having WeChat with crypto payments and with app interactions. Light client could come later though.
  - fabiosussetto 9y ago
    So for now the Ethereum promise to have a distributed network where I don't need to trust any man in the middle is really not possible yet on mobile devices?
    - terhechte 9y ago
      In theory, you could run a private client on DigitalOcean and then connect to that. Apart from that, true light clients are coming [1]. Particularly interesting is this comment by the ethereum light client developer: [2] "Can't promise anything yet but we're not that far from real trustless O(1) light client syncing." [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/5x27ss/after_metropolis_will_there_be_any_feature_other/def49oc/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/5x27ss/after_metr... They may even [1] https://blog.ethereum.org/2017/01/07/introduction-light-client-dapp-developers/ https://blog.ethereum.org/2017/01/07/introduction-light-clie...
  - wslh 9y ago
    > All Bitcoin wallets, for example, use servers because it's impossible to do Bitcoin light clients (at least, they haven't found a solution yet). No, SPV clients exist to avoid running a node: https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/4649/what-is-an-spv-client https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/4649/what-is-an-...
bhouston 9y ago
Who sends tips like that? Hopefully there are better use cases.
- la_oveja 9y ago
  See WeChat in China.
- brickmort 9y ago
  Watching how WeChat is used in China was very eye-opening: https://youtu.be/leFuF-zoVzA?t=546 https://youtu.be/leFuF-zoVzA?t=546
wslh 9y ago
I think the token economy will growth and growth. We can expect good and really bad news because anyone can participate. My company is receiving many inquiries oriented to managing funds and trading. Also, In the context of YC Startup School we are building an API for multiple cryptocurrencies, tokens, and smart contracts. We are even disassembling smart contracts to gather more metrics about the blockchain usage. If you are interested on using it instead of building your own infrastructure please contact me via my company page.
zimzim 9y ago
living in Zimbabwe now, there a severe shortage of cash, Im hoping a project like this one will catch one day. good luck
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  Is Ether not in short supply around there? Serious question - is it easier or more likely to fix government issues which cause that lack of cash, or is it easier to fix those issues in order to get the technical infrastructure necessary to transplant technology not even widely used in the US? The notion that a poor villager would be reliant on the Ethereum network for anything is slightly terrifying. Where do they go if they're wronged, there's a bug, or the people running the network decide upon a hard fork? Is that a reliable money supply?
  - menacingly 9y ago
    Not sure why this is downvoted, looks like a decent question asked in good faith
    - splintercell 9y ago
      It's because he wrote this: > or the people running the network decide upon a hard fork? which screams malice aforethought to people. The idea is that Ethereum had a hard fork which has divided people across two sides. To average people, you can get them to take any side depending upon how you compose the questions. You ask a non-techie: 1. What would you think if a company like Venmo decides to revert donations you received to pay for your daughter's cancer cure? 2. What would you think if the network of services you were using had a major theft, and the network took measures to thwart that theft by denying the thief access to the funds? Please don't argue on which of the questions is more dishonest. The point here is, if you ask the first question, majority of the people will agree with the anti-hard fork side, and if you ask the second question then majority of the people will side with the pro-hard fork side. Grandparent comment, writing what he wrote in passing is like reading a 'seemingly' unbiased article about US election, with a passing line about "but would people be ok with having a president who deleted confidential emails, only time will tell". This is essentially what the GP comment did.
argentinaIT 9y ago
Is this supposed to be a UI for end users of smart contracts? Are smart contracts widely deployed in production yet? Or just b2bexperiments experiments ?
- dubrocks 9y ago
  It's a darknet market replacement.
  - kordless 9y ago
    I'm honestly curious about this thing I see occasionally on HackerNews. The observation of the thing are mostly negative comments, irrational in nature, which are presented by a significantly aged account with very low karma and posting history. Servicing the underbanked is an important goal. I know people working on solving underbanked issues and I know it is important to them and support them. In this case, your comment is a completely blatant blaming statement. Just because less than traditional marketplaces share a similarity to this product, or the other way around, is no indication it's intended use is a darknet market replacement. In other words, the developers intent here is unlikely to be what you claim, simply by way of a biased comparison. The outcome of use by users may be different certainly, but that doesn't make your claim valid, or rational. In fact, the only group who would be mostly likely to make this claim would be a group who seeks to control markets. If such a group sought to control markets, by manipulation of sentiment and social logic (of which is required for discussing said post) then a highly rational thing to do would be to create a lot of accounts over a long period of time and then use those accounts randomly to post negative sentiment about things that remove control from the group. Further, I present an observation that by not knowing who it is that is posting, we (the HackerNews group) are doing ourselves a disservice in letting these individuals have an equal voice, especially when it is a voice of blame. That is not to say that entities should be denied posting when new, but perhaps those entities should be required to engage in positive additions to the discussion before being able to be blaming, as I am doing here, clearly. Of course, I have the karma to do so and a long history of comments that can be inspected to verify identity. That's a good use-case for cryptocurrencies, and text messaging, if there ever was one. I'd like to see a project, similar to HN be developed which implements this using similar techniques to eliminate the increasing inclusion of irrational arguments into the discussion.
627467 9y ago
Token's client is a lot faster (and much less buggy) than status.im.
bflesch 9y ago
I applaud the effort the coinbase team has put into this project. Yet I'm sceptical if this will be the breakthrough for cryptocurrencies.
pimlottc 9y ago
I'm not sure "Browser" is a good term for this; I get that they are trying to convey that it's just a client for the existing independent Etherium network, but to 99% of people, "browser" == "web browser". It's just going to cause confusion, especially in non-technical users (which seems to be a user base they are trying to go for here). Even as a developer, when I saw "tokenbrowser.com", I was expecting to see a web browser. Visually, it looks more like a chat client (makes sense since they are taking inspiration from WeChat).
- to_bpr 9y ago
  Likewise. I applaud their idea and technical work but their messaging needs an overhaul to make it more accessible/consumable to the average person.
- YPCrumble 9y ago
  I just clicked because I thought it was a cool new web browser. I don't care about Ethereum and it feels like clickbait to me.
  - paulddraper 9y ago
    The domain name is click bait?
    - xeromal 9y ago
      I was deceived too. "Token App Browser" is more apt if that's what it actually can do.
    - devmunchies 9y ago
      People create language, language doesn't create people. Meaning, words mean what the majority of people think they mean.
    - CrystalLangUser 9y ago
      If the vast majority of people assume browser == web browser, then yes.
joeblau 9y ago
I just heard an interesting talk about this on the Bitcoin Podcast[1] a few days ago. They have some inserting ideas around being able to democratize startup stage investing. [1] - http://thebitcoinpodcast.com/episode-120/ http://thebitcoinpodcast.com/episode-120/
valarauca1 9y ago
Yo can I get a copy of the Apps source code? Open Whisper Systems source is GPLv3.
- th0br0 9y ago
  Searching for 'whisper' on the page lead me to https://github.com/tokenbrowser https://github.com/tokenbrowser
  - zeveb 9y ago
    Imagine, if Signal supported federation then Signal users could talk to Token users!
- jrs95 9y ago
  There's a link to the source in the article.
- leshow 9y ago
  How is whatsapp using it then?
  - distances 9y ago
    WhatsApp contracted the Whisper folks to implement the protocol. It's not using Signal libraries directly.
  - r3bl 9y ago
    By running its own network, based on Signal's protocol. Same thing goes with "private conversations" in Facebook's Messenger, or whatever it's called. It's all the same protocol, but three different networks running that protocol. You can't communicate between these networks, and you'll need three accounts in order to communicate to people using these networks. In fact, Whisper Systems has actively killed every third party app that tried plugging into Signal's network. While there's nothing stopping you from making a client, expect a lot of hostility from them if you decide to do so.
- Quiark 9y ago
cordite 9y ago
Aside from the app, and what it can facilitate, I find chat UIs to be a zone for invention. Here Token partially formalized the UI [1] for menus and the like. As it is with Telegram for example, you provide a "keyboard" of a grid of buttons to press, similar to SOFA each button has a value. However Telegram does not have menus, so general purpose bots need a lot of back and forth to refine what the user's intention is. With SOFA, it seems to be one payload with nested options that do not need to be committed in order to explore what options there are, reducing concerns for connectivity requirements just to find out what they can do. [1]: https://www.sofaprotocol.org https://www.sofaprotocol.org
- fiatjaf 9y ago
  I don't understand what you say. You think it is something amazing that they invented a message format? The UX continues to be more-or-less the same, doesn't it?
  - cordite 9y ago
    I think it is a good thing that they are formalizing a chat based UI which may work well with low connectivity. Connectivity isn't a stated concern, but I do see it as addressed as round trip communication to discover affordances is avoided.
jerf 9y ago
Is reputation a single number associated with an identity, or is there a network element to it?
camjohnson26 9y ago
What can you actually do with this, other than chat and send payments? There's only 2 apps in the recommended section and they're both basic.
- pipermerriam 9y ago
  This is an early release of something intended to be a platform on which independent developers can build applications. Everything on there is meant to be illustrative of what you can do. Currently it only operates on the test network so it's a toy for the time being.
ksahin 9y ago
This is huge ! So many new Ethereum project out there : Token, Status.im, Augur, Golem, Aragon ... It's amazing to see such an ecosystem growing so fast.
alkonaut 9y ago
This would be a huge thing in places where there isn't a good free bank account-to-bank account money transfer app. which I assume is why facebook is also eyeing such things.
- spideytingles 9y ago
  Only if they have easy access to Ethereum tokens, which is doubtful. Bitcoin is a lot easier to obtain than Ethereum is, usually people have to buy Bitcoin to buy Ethereum, that's a lot of effort just to use an app.
  - benjaminmbrown 9y ago
    No you don't 'have' to buy bitcoin to buy eth. Coinbase, which is known as the largest fiat-> btc/eth platform allows fiat -> eth directly. But yes, I agree that easy access to eth or btc is not available at the moment for those outside the US or outside the neckbeard community
  - runeks 9y ago
    It's just as much about the liquidity/depth of the ETHUSD market, which is abysmal compared to BTCUSD. Crypto currencies are a great idea, but without liquidity it's fairly useless as a value transfer system, as you'll lose significant sums to slippage when exchanging.
STRML 9y ago
I like the idea, but this is very confusing to end-consumers: - Is this just a messaging app? A payments app? A web browser? - It's all of those things, except not a web browser, it's an "app browser" (why not app store, especially considering the whole point of these is that they are paid?) - The starting experience is anything but compelling: http://i.imgur.com/U69Gskl.png http://i.imgur.com/U69Gskl.png - Is this developed by Coinbase? If so, why is there no mention, and the app is developed by "Bluxome Labs"?
- m3ta 9y ago
  The more confusing thing is what will happen when the userbase finds out Ethereum "smart contracts" aren't good for anything except online gambling which certainly will not be allowed on the TokenBrowser app. Also, I shook my head when I saw your screenshot, that is certainly not a good first impression.
  - alvarosevilla95 9y ago
    That's not true at all though. Smart Contracts are being used in a wide variety of great projects. In my opinion what's really missing is a fiat currency token, that can be legally recognised as actual money for a lot of business to be able to go massive.
    - m3ta 9y ago
      > That's not true at all though. Smart Contracts are being used in a wide variety of great projects. Do you have any examples of projects that would be truly different or impossible to implement without smart contracts?
      - alvarosevilla95 9y ago
        Well that depends in what's truly different for you. A quick example, because I'm on my phone, is [1], which is enabling donating to specific people around the world with total transparency through smart contracts [1] http://www.giveth.io/ http://www.giveth.io/
Perignon 9y ago
I'll bite. Why do I need this?
- drcode 9y ago
  You know how twitter killed off all those nice third-party twitter clients a while ago? With this tool, even the creators of the app can't stop people from creating alternate UIs for chat/payments/etc. You know how AWS went down a while ago and github (and a zillion other sites) stopped working? With this tool, you could log into a repo manager (several are in the works) and there is no single point of failure that can take it offline. You know how you wanted to send money from Taiwan to the US and the bank wire was declined despite repeated attempts and without any clear explanation and your money was trapped in a bank account in Taiwan? (might not have happened to you, but is happening to me at the moment) with this tool the exact rules for how a particular currency can move around is specified ahead of time in clear turing-complete computer code.
  - RexetBlell 9y ago
    Great explanation! I would also add that the code does not necessarily have to be turing complete. There is a new language that complies to EVM bytecode that is decidable (not turing complete) https://github.com/ethereum/viper https://github.com/ethereum/viper It's a little less expressive, which makes it safer. Easier to reason about the code, for example)
  - cookiecaper 9y ago
    >You know how twitter killed off all those nice third-party twitter clients a while ago? With this tool, even the creators of the app can't stop people from creating alternate UIs for chat/payments/etc. The only reason Twitter can stop that now is because the force of law stands behind their admonitions. How would Ethereum stop Twitter from suing a big alternate app vendor? The barriers that exist to prevent this are already non-technical. >You know how AWS went down a while ago and github (and a zillion other sites) stopped working? With this tool, you could log into a repo manager (several are in the works) and there is no single point of failure that can take it offline. Ethereum is an append-only system such that data inserted cannot be revoked? I know how btc works but have only glanced at Ethereum. I know programs are registered as parts of the blockchain, but all data and assets? If not, how do you ensure there is no point of failure for an interface like GitHub, or do you just mean the code to run it will always be available since it will be in the chain? >You know how you wanted to send money from Taiwan to the US and the bank wire was declined despite repeated attempts and without any clear explanation and your money was trapped in a bank account in Taiwan? Again, this is not a technical limitation. The banking system has every ability to move those numbers around. They are declining to do so without disclosing the reason. In this case, Ethereum/Bitcoin are not functionally different than using any other non-seized liquid asset. Someone could refuse to honor your ETH/BTC transfer just as easily as they could refuse to accept your USD transfer.
ankitgupta191 9y ago
I tried using it. It works like a charm. May be I felt good because I have been following the Ethereum ecosystem. I am fine if someone would have felt otherwise.
computerwizard 9y ago
Did anyone else register a bunch of 'leet' usernames? I wonder if they will reset the usernames when it gets put on livenet because it kind of seems unfair.
fiatjaf 9y ago
See also Status, which is very very similar and open-source: https://status.im/ https://status.im/
j_s 9y ago
I asked the first time this was mentioned on the Status thread: Is this an end run around Apple's 30% of IAP?

488 points by samscully 9y ago

Because it's not immediately clear, this is a project developed by Coinbase, but under its own brand. The demo, which is available on the Apple Store and Google Play store uses TestNet Ether for now.

lacker 9y ago
Yeah, I found it confusing that the ownership of the project was nowhere mentioned on tokenbrowser.com. The code seems to be copyrighted by "Token Browser, Inc" so I'm curious what sort of entity that is, whether it's just owned by Coinbase or what. https://github.com/tokenbrowser/token-app-js/blob/master/LICENCE https://github.com/tokenbrowser/token-app-js/blob/master/LIC...
j_s 9y ago
Yes; this post may have finally gotten traction thanks to yesterday's discussion of the nearly-equivalent "actual Ether" Status project. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14161695 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14161695

_pdp_ 9y ago

Maybe I am not getting it but ethereum is way to complex to make it successful - and because it is decentralised it looks deeply fragmented. As I said, I am probably not getting it.

AroundTheBlock_ 9y ago
It is very complex, but also very, very early. No one is pretending that any of this is production ready or user friendly. These are just glimpses into what is being worked on for over the next 5-10 years
danielpatrick 9y ago
I'll add some color here. The complexity you're referring to may be the runtime? It is more complex than, say, Bitcoin because it has for most purposes a Turing complete language baked into the protocol. Bitcoin is a blockchain that forms consensus on the state of a specific implementation of a data structure (somewhat arbitrarily, a list of transactions) and it has a very limited set of operations to manipulate that data. Coming to distributed consensus on a transaction ledger is ultra-useful, as we have come to know. But there may be other data structures that may be useful for distributed consensus as well. Rather than building a blockchain for each one, why not build that flexibility into one protocol so the developer can choose? Ethereum is a blockchain that forms consensus on the state of a more general set of data types, with a Turing complete language to operate on the data. More complex? Yes. But the hope is that this flexibility drives a rich developer ecosystem, where innovation can happen within the network, rather than having to build your own network from scratch. As for decentralization leading to fragmentation? This is a feature, not a bug. It is the feature that allowed Ethereum to grow in tangent with a thousand other blockchain mechanisms. Maybe fragmentation will bring its demise, but it as breath of fresh air from our rapidly consolidating tech industry.
terhechte 9y ago
It is indeed looking very complex, but that's because (as others have pointed out) it is still rather young. Ethereum itself is being implemented with a phased roadmap: Frontier, Homestead, Metropolis, Serenity. We're still in the Homestead phase, and Metropolis (the next phase) will, for example include "a relatively full-featured user interface for non-technical users" [1]. But even this is probably still years away from simple usability for an average user. Also, remember that understanding happens in layers. The web with all its components also once looked very alien to all of us (DNS, REST, Server, Client, Browser, FTP, Gopher, P2P, HTML, Javascript, the list goes on). We just take it all for granted because we grew up while layers were piled on top. But if you can't even tell a client from a server, then understanding how a modern web app works will also take a long time and will look way too complex. This is not to say that ethereum will be as revolutionary as the web, just that simplicity can easier grow out of complexity than complexity can grow out of simplicity [1] https://blog.ethereum.org/2015/03/03/ethereum-launch-process/ https://blog.ethereum.org/2015/03/03/ethereum-launch-process...
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  Not to be dense, but don't understand your argument. You just listed how Ethereum is a sizable tech stack and still growing and then suggest that it will eventually get simpler - after it has more users, after there is technical lock-in. That seems contradictory to many working projects. Perhaps it is complex? It's a reinvention of almost the entire web stack.
  - terhechte 9y ago
    Sorry, I could have been more elaborate. Let me try to give some examples of what I mean: - A computer is quite complicated: It requires electricity, gates, transistors, boolean logic, a CPU, machine code, a machine code low level boot loader, an operating system, a windowing server, an application framework. And finally, within the application framework we can build something like Notepad that is really trivial and simple to understand for the average user. A calculator is much simpler (given the whole tech stack), but trying to enter text there (like in notepad) would be much more difficult (if it had a stack, you could enter the hex value of each char, making up words). In this case, the beautiful simplicity that defines modern computing can only work because we first had to build and invent all the layers below it. - A web browser / server is also, again, really complicated. The end result is that users go to google.com, enter a search term, and receive the results. Without the additional complexity of MapReduce, millions of servers, AI, etc, Google search wouldn't be so simple. Ethereum is still in the phase where complex technology is added so that finally simple layers can be put on top. Raiden [1] is an example of that: As a user, I want to pay something immediately. Looking at a block explorer after payment with a transaction ID to see when there're enough blockchain confirmations is very complex. At some point this will be the technology under the hood as transactions will happen in near-realtime. Then, no user has to even understand the transaction, transaction time and confirmations. Ethereum is indeed re-inventing much of the current web stack, but this happens, of course, in the context of decentralised, trustless, open computing. [1] https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/lightning-fast-raiden-network-coming-to-ethereum-blockchains-1471030245/ https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/lightning-fast-raiden-n...
drcode 9y ago
I can tell you that I'm building a proof-of-concept medical provider registry on ethereum right now for a US state in my free time and the entire registry with a rather deep security model and tons of functionality is a total of 230 lines of smart contract code (this represents the "server side" of the registry) It'll probably be around 500 lines if it reaches production. I bet you the next smallest state-level medical provider registry right now is probably 50,000 lines of server-side code. How does this make ethereum too complex to be useful?
- _pdp_ 9y ago
  I would love to see that. Is it public?

aaron-lebo 9y ago

I would find your pitch much more interesting if you didn't go from "look at this very cool technology" to "look how we're changing the world for the better for these poor people in Africa". Be realistic. How many Sub-Saharan Africans are using Token or working on it right now? You're first-world devs working on first-world tech and wrapping it up in humanitarian terms because it makes you more attractive. It's kind of exploitative. It's all about money at the end of the day, isn't it? I apologize for the rant. Just had a semester of classes on faith and development and law and development and this stuff is often very complex and a type of unintentional colonialism often runs through it. "Hey, check out these people! Check out how much they need our help! Wouldn't things be so much better if we did X for them?" In many cases, yes, but in a lot of ways it is impossible for people who aren't on the ground to properly understand culture, context, and needs. Does the team have anyone on the ground? Is this informed by research on the topic? From a less critical perspective, a portion of the site dedicated to such research (and thus informing the goals) would be really cool and useful.

Freak_NL 9y ago
> It's all about money at the end of the day, isn't it? I'm still having a hard time seeing any cryptocurrency based application as anything but an attempt to facilitate speculation based on that currency's value. There seem to be so many perverse incentives inherent to this technology that I automatically find any idealistic application of it suspect. Perhaps this is overly cynical, but all cryptocurrencies seem to boil down to a system that would immensely benefit whoever came up with that particular currency (by virtue of having mined all the early blocks before going public or whatever) and whoever invested early if it ever took off.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  > Perhaps this is overly cynical Probably not, especially not for all the coins started after bitcoin took off. Bitcoin itself may be an exception but without a reliable genesis story it's impossible to know for sure.
  - 9y ago

fabiosussetto 9y ago

Are they using some implementation of the Ethereum light client protocol? Last time I checked it wasn't available yet: https://github.com/ethereum/wiki/wiki/Light-client-protocol https://github.com/ethereum/wiki/wiki/Light-client-protocol If they are using the standard protocol then how do they connect to the Ethereum network? Do they use their servers as proxy to the network? Because if it's so, that would defeat the whole point to me.

AroundTheBlock_ 9y ago
No, they're not using the Light Client yet for that very reason, but easily could in the future. But in any case, no crypto wallets are light clients. All Bitcoin wallets, for example, use servers because it's impossible to do Bitcoin light clients (at least, they haven't found a solution yet). This app is more about having WeChat with crypto payments and with app interactions. Light client could come later though.
- fabiosussetto 9y ago
  So for now the Ethereum promise to have a distributed network where I don't need to trust any man in the middle is really not possible yet on mobile devices?
  - terhechte 9y ago
    In theory, you could run a private client on DigitalOcean and then connect to that. Apart from that, true light clients are coming [1]. Particularly interesting is this comment by the ethereum light client developer: [2] "Can't promise anything yet but we're not that far from real trustless O(1) light client syncing." [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/5x27ss/after_metropolis_will_there_be_any_feature_other/def49oc/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/5x27ss/after_metr... They may even [1] https://blog.ethereum.org/2017/01/07/introduction-light-client-dapp-developers/ https://blog.ethereum.org/2017/01/07/introduction-light-clie...
- wslh 9y ago
  > All Bitcoin wallets, for example, use servers because it's impossible to do Bitcoin light clients (at least, they haven't found a solution yet). No, SPV clients exist to avoid running a node: https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/4649/what-is-an-spv-client https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/4649/what-is-an-...

bhouston 9y ago

Who sends tips like that? Hopefully there are better use cases.

la_oveja 9y ago
See WeChat in China.
brickmort 9y ago
Watching how WeChat is used in China was very eye-opening: https://youtu.be/leFuF-zoVzA?t=546 https://youtu.be/leFuF-zoVzA?t=546

wslh 9y ago

I think the token economy will growth and growth. We can expect good and really bad news because anyone can participate. My company is receiving many inquiries oriented to managing funds and trading. Also, In the context of YC Startup School we are building an API for multiple cryptocurrencies, tokens, and smart contracts. We are even disassembling smart contracts to gather more metrics about the blockchain usage. If you are interested on using it instead of building your own infrastructure please contact me via my company page.

zimzim 9y ago

living in Zimbabwe now, there a severe shortage of cash, Im hoping a project like this one will catch one day. good luck

aaron-lebo 9y ago
Is Ether not in short supply around there? Serious question - is it easier or more likely to fix government issues which cause that lack of cash, or is it easier to fix those issues in order to get the technical infrastructure necessary to transplant technology not even widely used in the US? The notion that a poor villager would be reliant on the Ethereum network for anything is slightly terrifying. Where do they go if they're wronged, there's a bug, or the people running the network decide upon a hard fork? Is that a reliable money supply?
- menacingly 9y ago
  Not sure why this is downvoted, looks like a decent question asked in good faith
  - splintercell 9y ago
    It's because he wrote this: > or the people running the network decide upon a hard fork? which screams malice aforethought to people. The idea is that Ethereum had a hard fork which has divided people across two sides. To average people, you can get them to take any side depending upon how you compose the questions. You ask a non-techie: 1. What would you think if a company like Venmo decides to revert donations you received to pay for your daughter's cancer cure? 2. What would you think if the network of services you were using had a major theft, and the network took measures to thwart that theft by denying the thief access to the funds? Please don't argue on which of the questions is more dishonest. The point here is, if you ask the first question, majority of the people will agree with the anti-hard fork side, and if you ask the second question then majority of the people will side with the pro-hard fork side. Grandparent comment, writing what he wrote in passing is like reading a 'seemingly' unbiased article about US election, with a passing line about "but would people be ok with having a president who deleted confidential emails, only time will tell". This is essentially what the GP comment did.

argentinaIT 9y ago

Is this supposed to be a UI for end users of smart contracts? Are smart contracts widely deployed in production yet? Or just b2bexperiments experiments ?

dubrocks 9y ago
It's a darknet market replacement.
- kordless 9y ago
  I'm honestly curious about this thing I see occasionally on HackerNews. The observation of the thing are mostly negative comments, irrational in nature, which are presented by a significantly aged account with very low karma and posting history. Servicing the underbanked is an important goal. I know people working on solving underbanked issues and I know it is important to them and support them. In this case, your comment is a completely blatant blaming statement. Just because less than traditional marketplaces share a similarity to this product, or the other way around, is no indication it's intended use is a darknet market replacement. In other words, the developers intent here is unlikely to be what you claim, simply by way of a biased comparison. The outcome of use by users may be different certainly, but that doesn't make your claim valid, or rational. In fact, the only group who would be mostly likely to make this claim would be a group who seeks to control markets. If such a group sought to control markets, by manipulation of sentiment and social logic (of which is required for discussing said post) then a highly rational thing to do would be to create a lot of accounts over a long period of time and then use those accounts randomly to post negative sentiment about things that remove control from the group. Further, I present an observation that by not knowing who it is that is posting, we (the HackerNews group) are doing ourselves a disservice in letting these individuals have an equal voice, especially when it is a voice of blame. That is not to say that entities should be denied posting when new, but perhaps those entities should be required to engage in positive additions to the discussion before being able to be blaming, as I am doing here, clearly. Of course, I have the karma to do so and a long history of comments that can be inspected to verify identity. That's a good use-case for cryptocurrencies, and text messaging, if there ever was one. I'd like to see a project, similar to HN be developed which implements this using similar techniques to eliminate the increasing inclusion of irrational arguments into the discussion.

627467 9y ago

Token's client is a lot faster (and much less buggy) than status.im.

bflesch 9y ago

I applaud the effort the coinbase team has put into this project. Yet I'm sceptical if this will be the breakthrough for cryptocurrencies.

pimlottc 9y ago

I'm not sure "Browser" is a good term for this; I get that they are trying to convey that it's just a client for the existing independent Etherium network, but to 99% of people, "browser" == "web browser". It's just going to cause confusion, especially in non-technical users (which seems to be a user base they are trying to go for here). Even as a developer, when I saw "tokenbrowser.com", I was expecting to see a web browser. Visually, it looks more like a chat client (makes sense since they are taking inspiration from WeChat).

to_bpr 9y ago
Likewise. I applaud their idea and technical work but their messaging needs an overhaul to make it more accessible/consumable to the average person.
YPCrumble 9y ago
I just clicked because I thought it was a cool new web browser. I don't care about Ethereum and it feels like clickbait to me.
- paulddraper 9y ago
  The domain name is click bait?
  - xeromal 9y ago
    I was deceived too. "Token App Browser" is more apt if that's what it actually can do.
  - devmunchies 9y ago
    People create language, language doesn't create people. Meaning, words mean what the majority of people think they mean.
  - CrystalLangUser 9y ago
    If the vast majority of people assume browser == web browser, then yes.

joeblau 9y ago

I just heard an interesting talk about this on the Bitcoin Podcast[1] a few days ago. They have some inserting ideas around being able to democratize startup stage investing. [1] - http://thebitcoinpodcast.com/episode-120/ http://thebitcoinpodcast.com/episode-120/

valarauca1 9y ago

Yo can I get a copy of the Apps source code? Open Whisper Systems source is GPLv3.

th0br0 9y ago
Searching for 'whisper' on the page lead me to https://github.com/tokenbrowser https://github.com/tokenbrowser
- zeveb 9y ago
  Imagine, if Signal supported federation then Signal users could talk to Token users!
jrs95 9y ago
There's a link to the source in the article.
leshow 9y ago
How is whatsapp using it then?
- distances 9y ago
  WhatsApp contracted the Whisper folks to implement the protocol. It's not using Signal libraries directly.
- r3bl 9y ago
  By running its own network, based on Signal's protocol. Same thing goes with "private conversations" in Facebook's Messenger, or whatever it's called. It's all the same protocol, but three different networks running that protocol. You can't communicate between these networks, and you'll need three accounts in order to communicate to people using these networks. In fact, Whisper Systems has actively killed every third party app that tried plugging into Signal's network. While there's nothing stopping you from making a client, expect a lot of hostility from them if you decide to do so.
Quiark 9y ago

cordite 9y ago

Aside from the app, and what it can facilitate, I find chat UIs to be a zone for invention. Here Token partially formalized the UI [1] for menus and the like. As it is with Telegram for example, you provide a "keyboard" of a grid of buttons to press, similar to SOFA each button has a value. However Telegram does not have menus, so general purpose bots need a lot of back and forth to refine what the user's intention is. With SOFA, it seems to be one payload with nested options that do not need to be committed in order to explore what options there are, reducing concerns for connectivity requirements just to find out what they can do. [1]: https://www.sofaprotocol.org https://www.sofaprotocol.org

fiatjaf 9y ago
I don't understand what you say. You think it is something amazing that they invented a message format? The UX continues to be more-or-less the same, doesn't it?
- cordite 9y ago
  I think it is a good thing that they are formalizing a chat based UI which may work well with low connectivity. Connectivity isn't a stated concern, but I do see it as addressed as round trip communication to discover affordances is avoided.

jerf 9y ago

Is reputation a single number associated with an identity, or is there a network element to it?

camjohnson26 9y ago

What can you actually do with this, other than chat and send payments? There's only 2 apps in the recommended section and they're both basic.

pipermerriam 9y ago
This is an early release of something intended to be a platform on which independent developers can build applications. Everything on there is meant to be illustrative of what you can do. Currently it only operates on the test network so it's a toy for the time being.

ksahin 9y ago

This is huge ! So many new Ethereum project out there : Token, Status.im, Augur, Golem, Aragon ... It's amazing to see such an ecosystem growing so fast.

alkonaut 9y ago

This would be a huge thing in places where there isn't a good free bank account-to-bank account money transfer app. which I assume is why facebook is also eyeing such things.

spideytingles 9y ago
Only if they have easy access to Ethereum tokens, which is doubtful. Bitcoin is a lot easier to obtain than Ethereum is, usually people have to buy Bitcoin to buy Ethereum, that's a lot of effort just to use an app.
- benjaminmbrown 9y ago
  No you don't 'have' to buy bitcoin to buy eth. Coinbase, which is known as the largest fiat-> btc/eth platform allows fiat -> eth directly. But yes, I agree that easy access to eth or btc is not available at the moment for those outside the US or outside the neckbeard community
- runeks 9y ago
  It's just as much about the liquidity/depth of the ETHUSD market, which is abysmal compared to BTCUSD. Crypto currencies are a great idea, but without liquidity it's fairly useless as a value transfer system, as you'll lose significant sums to slippage when exchanging.

STRML 9y ago

I like the idea, but this is very confusing to end-consumers: - Is this just a messaging app? A payments app? A web browser? - It's all of those things, except not a web browser, it's an "app browser" (why not app store, especially considering the whole point of these is that they are paid?) - The starting experience is anything but compelling: http://i.imgur.com/U69Gskl.png http://i.imgur.com/U69Gskl.png - Is this developed by Coinbase? If so, why is there no mention, and the app is developed by "Bluxome Labs"?

m3ta 9y ago
The more confusing thing is what will happen when the userbase finds out Ethereum "smart contracts" aren't good for anything except online gambling which certainly will not be allowed on the TokenBrowser app. Also, I shook my head when I saw your screenshot, that is certainly not a good first impression.
- alvarosevilla95 9y ago
  That's not true at all though. Smart Contracts are being used in a wide variety of great projects. In my opinion what's really missing is a fiat currency token, that can be legally recognised as actual money for a lot of business to be able to go massive.
  - m3ta 9y ago
    > That's not true at all though. Smart Contracts are being used in a wide variety of great projects. Do you have any examples of projects that would be truly different or impossible to implement without smart contracts?
    - alvarosevilla95 9y ago
      Well that depends in what's truly different for you. A quick example, because I'm on my phone, is [1], which is enabling donating to specific people around the world with total transparency through smart contracts [1] http://www.giveth.io/ http://www.giveth.io/

Perignon 9y ago

I'll bite. Why do I need this?

drcode 9y ago
You know how twitter killed off all those nice third-party twitter clients a while ago? With this tool, even the creators of the app can't stop people from creating alternate UIs for chat/payments/etc. You know how AWS went down a while ago and github (and a zillion other sites) stopped working? With this tool, you could log into a repo manager (several are in the works) and there is no single point of failure that can take it offline. You know how you wanted to send money from Taiwan to the US and the bank wire was declined despite repeated attempts and without any clear explanation and your money was trapped in a bank account in Taiwan? (might not have happened to you, but is happening to me at the moment) with this tool the exact rules for how a particular currency can move around is specified ahead of time in clear turing-complete computer code.
- RexetBlell 9y ago
  Great explanation! I would also add that the code does not necessarily have to be turing complete. There is a new language that complies to EVM bytecode that is decidable (not turing complete) https://github.com/ethereum/viper https://github.com/ethereum/viper It's a little less expressive, which makes it safer. Easier to reason about the code, for example)
- cookiecaper 9y ago
  >You know how twitter killed off all those nice third-party twitter clients a while ago? With this tool, even the creators of the app can't stop people from creating alternate UIs for chat/payments/etc. The only reason Twitter can stop that now is because the force of law stands behind their admonitions. How would Ethereum stop Twitter from suing a big alternate app vendor? The barriers that exist to prevent this are already non-technical. >You know how AWS went down a while ago and github (and a zillion other sites) stopped working? With this tool, you could log into a repo manager (several are in the works) and there is no single point of failure that can take it offline. Ethereum is an append-only system such that data inserted cannot be revoked? I know how btc works but have only glanced at Ethereum. I know programs are registered as parts of the blockchain, but all data and assets? If not, how do you ensure there is no point of failure for an interface like GitHub, or do you just mean the code to run it will always be available since it will be in the chain? >You know how you wanted to send money from Taiwan to the US and the bank wire was declined despite repeated attempts and without any clear explanation and your money was trapped in a bank account in Taiwan? Again, this is not a technical limitation. The banking system has every ability to move those numbers around. They are declining to do so without disclosing the reason. In this case, Ethereum/Bitcoin are not functionally different than using any other non-seized liquid asset. Someone could refuse to honor your ETH/BTC transfer just as easily as they could refuse to accept your USD transfer.

ankitgupta191 9y ago

I tried using it. It works like a charm. May be I felt good because I have been following the Ethereum ecosystem. I am fine if someone would have felt otherwise.

computerwizard 9y ago

Did anyone else register a bunch of 'leet' usernames? I wonder if they will reset the usernames when it gets put on livenet because it kind of seems unfair.

fiatjaf 9y ago

See also Status, which is very very similar and open-source: https://status.im/ https://status.im/

j_s 9y ago

I asked the first time this was mentioned on the Status thread: Is this an end run around Apple's 30% of IAP?