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> in fact, obligated to incur thousands of dollars in losses by being "randomly" selected to miss a work day on which an entire medical office depends, in excha

> in fact, obligated to incur thousands of dollars in losses by being "randomly" selected to miss a work day on which an entire medical office depends, in exchange for 800 units of United scrip. But its the law and he knew full well that there was always a risk that he would be bumped from a flight, as any passenger does. If he did not want to be bumped he should buy a business class seat. Now the fact that it can be argued legalistically that he was not "denied boarding by bumping", but was "deplaned", is something he can pursue in the courts if he chooses to. But I don't think he was even arguing this at the time. His behaviour was simply childish.

Mithaldu 10y ago
Did you miss the part where the law says they were not only under the legally mandated entitlement, but also not fulfilling the part where the law demands they pay out cash?
- masondixon 10y ago
  Did they not pay out the compensation? I can't seem to find that part.
  - fatbird 10y ago
    They offered $800 vouchers, which are limited flying coupons. Legally they're required to offer cash up to $1350. They'd already failed to exhaust their legal duties in this situation, and if this actually ends up in court, one argument sure to be raised is that they used the police and an abuse of the "deny boarding" part of the contract of carriage to keep their expenses down, which was what they seemed to actually be doing: Republic is a subcontractor operating under bankruptcy protection.
    - masondixon 10y ago
      > abuse of the "deny boarding" part of the contract of carriage to keep their expenses down If they keep their expenses down is does benefit customers in paying less for tickets. > They offered $800 vouchers, which are limited flying coupons. Legally they're required to offer cash up to $1350. Legally, they can negotiate with customer. If they refused to offer cash that is illegal. But they can offer whatever they like. "As you can see, in many cases you’re entitled to a sizable cash payment, up to $1,350. However, here’s the dirty secret of the airlines. In a vast majority of cases they’ll only offer cash compensation if you specifically ask for it. Otherwise they’ll offer you the same voucher they gave anyone who was voluntarily denied boarding." http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2017/04/11/what-are-your-rights-if-you-get-bumped-from-a-flight/ http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2017/04/11/what-are-y...
      - FireBeyond 10y ago
        > "negotiate" A negotiation with an entity that "can" (for varying definitions), and will, have you trespassed or otherwise forcibly removed is not a particularly fair "meeting of the minds". It's somewhat what happened here. Passengers _were_ negotiating. Someone offered to leave for $1500, then $1300, on video, and the gate agent responded. "Not happening. Someone's getting off or the plane's going nowhere", and look at the result. That's "my way, or the highway", not a negotiation in any meaningful sense.
        masondixon 10y ago
        > Passengers _were_ negotiating I mean after involuntary bumping which is allowed after making an offer for voluntary bumping which is not required to be negotiated. By "negotiation" it means they can offer free flights or vouchers. This is very common place. The final mandated offer is subject to many conditions as outlined here: https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights which would be specific to each customer.
      - yebyen 10y ago
        They are also legally required to inform you of your rights once your ticket has been revoked. Judging from the fact they still were calling him a "volunteer" as of the CEO's press release the next day, I'd bet they did not actually go through any of this process of revoking his ticket. If this is a policy then these internal policies are wrong too. I don't know what conversation they had with him, but I'd wager a guess their policies are slanted in the direction of calling it a voluntary bump no matter what actually happens. If you don't ever actually revoke their ticket, you never actually have to pay out at 400% of the ticket value! /s It is not the passenger's responsibility to know their rights and request the cash payout either, it is the airline's responsibility to apprise them of their full rights when the ticket is revoked for any reason. Negotiating would be offering $1600 in vouchers (or say, a value in excess of 400% ticket price) to avoid a cash payout. I would call it "negotiating in bad faith" to offer a lesser value of non-cash vouchers than the amount that the passenger is actually entitled to receive in cash, by law. (At least once you've decided, as in this case, which passenger is the passenger that is being bumped.) I don't know what exactly "revoking the ticket" means, or if it has anything to do with a physical boarding pass, but I've heard lots of conjecture suggesting that since he was boarded and in his seat, they would not have been within their rights to revoke his ticket at all. He would have had to meet one of the "Rule 21" criteria for Refusal of Transport, in other words, those cases limited to reasons including government request, safety, failure to pay, or in cases of international travel where your documents are found to be not in order.
ceejayoz 10y ago
> But its the law and he knew full well that there was always a risk that he would be bumped from a flight, as any passenger does. The contract with United says you can be denied boarding, but not much about boarding and then being kicked off after. > If he did not want to be bumped he should buy a business class seat. That's no guarantee. http://thehill.com/policy/transportation/aviation/328495-united-threatened-first-class-passenger-with-handcuffs-to http://thehill.com/policy/transportation/aviation/328495-uni... > Geoff Fearns, who purchased a full-priced first-class ticket to travel from Hawaii to California, was asked to get off the plane by an airline employee because the flight had been overbooked, according to The Los Angeles Times. “That’s when they told me they needed the seat for somebody more important who came at the last minute,” Fearns told the newspaper. “They said they have a priority list and this other person was higher on the list than me.”
- masondixon 10y ago
  > The priority of all other confirmed passengers may be determined based on a passenger’s fare class, itinerary, status of frequent flyer program membership, and the time in which the passenger presents him/herself for check-in without advanced seat assignment. https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx#sec25 https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriag... Seems this is part of the contract. Who would he be angry with if the weather caused the plane to be grounded?
  - ceejayoz 10y ago
    All of that's in the "denied boarding" section. This guy, given that he was on the plane and sitting in his seat, wasn't denied boarding. He boarded.
    - masondixon 10y ago
      I was responding to your "That's no guarantee." statement.
- tarlinian 10y ago
  This guy didn't get kicked off the plane...he was put in an lower class (and some guy in Economy maybe got bumped).

Mithaldu 10y ago

Did you miss the part where the law says they were not only under the legally mandated entitlement, but also not fulfilling the part where the law demands they pay out cash?

masondixon 10y ago
Did they not pay out the compensation? I can't seem to find that part.
- fatbird 10y ago
  They offered $800 vouchers, which are limited flying coupons. Legally they're required to offer cash up to $1350. They'd already failed to exhaust their legal duties in this situation, and if this actually ends up in court, one argument sure to be raised is that they used the police and an abuse of the "deny boarding" part of the contract of carriage to keep their expenses down, which was what they seemed to actually be doing: Republic is a subcontractor operating under bankruptcy protection.
  - masondixon 10y ago
    > abuse of the "deny boarding" part of the contract of carriage to keep their expenses down If they keep their expenses down is does benefit customers in paying less for tickets. > They offered $800 vouchers, which are limited flying coupons. Legally they're required to offer cash up to $1350. Legally, they can negotiate with customer. If they refused to offer cash that is illegal. But they can offer whatever they like. "As you can see, in many cases you’re entitled to a sizable cash payment, up to $1,350. However, here’s the dirty secret of the airlines. In a vast majority of cases they’ll only offer cash compensation if you specifically ask for it. Otherwise they’ll offer you the same voucher they gave anyone who was voluntarily denied boarding." http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2017/04/11/what-are-your-rights-if-you-get-bumped-from-a-flight/ http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2017/04/11/what-are-y...
    - FireBeyond 10y ago
      > "negotiate" A negotiation with an entity that "can" (for varying definitions), and will, have you trespassed or otherwise forcibly removed is not a particularly fair "meeting of the minds". It's somewhat what happened here. Passengers _were_ negotiating. Someone offered to leave for $1500, then $1300, on video, and the gate agent responded. "Not happening. Someone's getting off or the plane's going nowhere", and look at the result. That's "my way, or the highway", not a negotiation in any meaningful sense.
      - masondixon 10y ago
        > Passengers _were_ negotiating I mean after involuntary bumping which is allowed after making an offer for voluntary bumping which is not required to be negotiated. By "negotiation" it means they can offer free flights or vouchers. This is very common place. The final mandated offer is subject to many conditions as outlined here: https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights which would be specific to each customer.
    - yebyen 10y ago
      They are also legally required to inform you of your rights once your ticket has been revoked. Judging from the fact they still were calling him a "volunteer" as of the CEO's press release the next day, I'd bet they did not actually go through any of this process of revoking his ticket. If this is a policy then these internal policies are wrong too. I don't know what conversation they had with him, but I'd wager a guess their policies are slanted in the direction of calling it a voluntary bump no matter what actually happens. If you don't ever actually revoke their ticket, you never actually have to pay out at 400% of the ticket value! /s It is not the passenger's responsibility to know their rights and request the cash payout either, it is the airline's responsibility to apprise them of their full rights when the ticket is revoked for any reason. Negotiating would be offering $1600 in vouchers (or say, a value in excess of 400% ticket price) to avoid a cash payout. I would call it "negotiating in bad faith" to offer a lesser value of non-cash vouchers than the amount that the passenger is actually entitled to receive in cash, by law. (At least once you've decided, as in this case, which passenger is the passenger that is being bumped.) I don't know what exactly "revoking the ticket" means, or if it has anything to do with a physical boarding pass, but I've heard lots of conjecture suggesting that since he was boarded and in his seat, they would not have been within their rights to revoke his ticket at all. He would have had to meet one of the "Rule 21" criteria for Refusal of Transport, in other words, those cases limited to reasons including government request, safety, failure to pay, or in cases of international travel where your documents are found to be not in order.

ceejayoz 10y ago

> But its the law and he knew full well that there was always a risk that he would be bumped from a flight, as any passenger does. The contract with United says you can be denied boarding, but not much about boarding and then being kicked off after. > If he did not want to be bumped he should buy a business class seat. That's no guarantee. http://thehill.com/policy/transportation/aviation/328495-united-threatened-first-class-passenger-with-handcuffs-to http://thehill.com/policy/transportation/aviation/328495-uni... > Geoff Fearns, who purchased a full-priced first-class ticket to travel from Hawaii to California, was asked to get off the plane by an airline employee because the flight had been overbooked, according to The Los Angeles Times. “That’s when they told me they needed the seat for somebody more important who came at the last minute,” Fearns told the newspaper. “They said they have a priority list and this other person was higher on the list than me.”

masondixon 10y ago
> The priority of all other confirmed passengers may be determined based on a passenger’s fare class, itinerary, status of frequent flyer program membership, and the time in which the passenger presents him/herself for check-in without advanced seat assignment. https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx#sec25 https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriag... Seems this is part of the contract. Who would he be angry with if the weather caused the plane to be grounded?
- ceejayoz 10y ago
  All of that's in the "denied boarding" section. This guy, given that he was on the plane and sitting in his seat, wasn't denied boarding. He boarded.
  - masondixon 10y ago
    I was responding to your "That's no guarantee." statement.
tarlinian 10y ago
This guy didn't get kicked off the plane...he was put in an lower class (and some guy in Economy maybe got bumped).