2 ms·

So I'm guessing you have found your attempts to hire senior devs in Australia to be easy?

brokenmachine 10y ago
I'm not a hirer but a lowly employee. See my recent edit. I keep an eye on the market and I haven't seen any crazy wage increases. I'm not against being convinced of the point but atm I'm just not convinced that there's no senior devs to find, at the right price. Also, how long have these visas been going on for? It's kind of a chicken-and-egg problem I guess. Because of the band-aid fix of the visas, the wages never go up and there's no extra incentive for people to become devs. edit: I can't reply any more, I guess because it's become too deep. You say I don't know the problem, but I am actually intermediate-level IT, and atm I have little incentive to move up because the wages are not commensurate with the extra responsibilities in my opinion. So I feel I do have some knowledge of the problem at least anecdotally, as I would personally be applying for those positions if I felt I would be fairly paid for the extra stress/time/responsibility.
- sanswork 10y ago
  I've explained elsewhere why raising wages doesn't solve the problem. You are convinced there is no problem when you admittedly have no experience with the issue. You're also expecting to see changes that wouldn't fix the problem because of your lack of experience with The problem.
  - hiram112 10y ago
    What you don't seem to understand is that the visa system destroys the whole concept of supply and demand. If your business can't hire workers, you will have to raise salaries. If you can't afford the higher salaries, you don't have a viable business (at least, without the use of wage arbitrage and indentured servants). The extra supply of labor will come into the market as soon as they're receiving signals that wages are rising, working conditions good, etc. Until then, it seems like a waste of time: why study really difficult software when you will be competing with folks willing to work much more cheaply. You might have to wait a bit for this pipeline to fix itself since you purposefully broke it this past decade by using visas to game the system.
    - sanswork 10y ago
      I've already responded to this claim in these comments. For what you say to be true there would need to be a large market of senior developers waiting in the wings refusing to work until wages go up. You're also assuming the growth in jobs has been steady and predictable which it hasn't a spoiler in demand runs the whole idea that we just need more juniors starting. The problem is companies can't wait so they can bring in workers who pay taxes here and contribute to the economy or they can move there jobs over seas. I expect we'll be seeing a lot more of the latter going forward.
- sanswork 10y ago
  So you are claiming that the only thing holding you back from progressing your career is that you don't want to do more work for what you see as not enough money? If that is true you suffer from some serious short sightedness in regards to your career. AND you don't have any experience in the topic.
  - brokenmachine 10y ago
    Well, we're only talking about me now, but I have pretty much decided that I do not want to progress any further in my current direction. I'm on a pretty good pay now and the work situation is acceptable. I am investigating ways to invest the money I have made/am still making in the best ways for the best possible return, and also looking to downshift by pursuing projects/businesses in my free time that I am simply interested in - that have no guarantee of financial success, while also looking into the possibility of moving to a less expensive part of the country. I am not looking for a promotion which includes taking on more stress and less free time in exchange for an insufficient pay increase. It would need to be significant for me to take the chance, and from what I have seen out there, I haven't found anything that would satisfy me, although if I was actually out of work now perhaps I would accept less. If that makes me unqualified in your opinion to comment about whether pays are sufficient for exactly the type of job that I'd be applying for, I don't care. I also don't care if you think I'm ambitious enough. I'm very sure I wouldn't want to work for you anyway. There was even an out-of-work dev commenting that he was looking for work in this very thread. I don't know what more I can say.
    - sanswork 10y ago
      edit: I was being a dick here It does make you unqualified because you haven't been on there other side of the table trying to hire ever. The only person I saw was looking to change jobs which is to say leave their current employer with a need for an intermediate developer.
      - brokenmachine 10y ago
        re: you being a dick. Yes we can all be dicks sometimes but that was incorrect as well as rude. Of course I have considered negotiating. It's absolutely none of your business of course but I work government so no possibility of negotiation. I am on the highest pay grade I can get with my skills without a complete change of occupation, and tbh I feel I'm getting an ok deal for the amount of stress I have with my pay and conditions. Especially so when I work closely with people in different roles that are getting completely exploited pay-wise in my opinion. I know it'd be more work doing stuff for myself but at least I'd have more control over my own destiny, plus the possibility that it would work out very well, which I don't have now working a 9-to-5. It'd be pretty disappointing if it fell in a flaming heap though. Well, I do feel that being a prospective employee makes me qualified to comment, so there you go. Just because I haven't put a job ad up with an artificially lowered pay and had no applicants doesn't mean I haven't seen what's on offer out there. Have you considered, like people have been saying in these comments, that you may not have been getting applicants (such as myself) because the conditions or pay weren't as reasonable as you think? ie, Do you really think if you doubled the pay you were offering you wouldn't have got more applicants? If I left my job, for argument's sake, say to work at your place, someone with a lower level of skill could start at my old job and learn it as they go, like I had to with little training so many years ago. Some old people leave, some new people start. I think there's lots of skilled people out there. We shouldn't be bringing in slave labour from overseas so we can continue with our artificially lowered pays. If we're going to do capitalism we might as well do it properly... So if your business can't afford to pay what its costs are, then it is not a viable business. Also obviously that guy who did apply was not happy with the pay or conditions at the place he was working at, so there's that. Anyway we obviously don't see eye-to-eye on this issue.

I'm not a hirer but a lowly employee. See my recent edit. I keep an eye on the market and I haven't seen any crazy wage increases. I'm not against being convinced of the point but atm I'm just not convinced that there's no senior devs to find, at the right price. Also, how long have these visas been going on for? It's kind of a chicken-and-egg problem I guess. Because of the band-aid fix of the visas, the wages never go up and there's no extra incentive for people to become devs. edit: I can't reply any more, I guess because it's become too deep. You say I don't know the problem, but I am actually intermediate-level IT, and atm I have little incentive to move up because the wages are not commensurate with the extra responsibilities in my opinion. So I feel I do have some knowledge of the problem at least anecdotally, as I would personally be applying for those positions if I felt I would be fairly paid for the extra stress/time/responsibility.

sanswork 10y ago
I've explained elsewhere why raising wages doesn't solve the problem. You are convinced there is no problem when you admittedly have no experience with the issue. You're also expecting to see changes that wouldn't fix the problem because of your lack of experience with The problem.
- hiram112 10y ago
  What you don't seem to understand is that the visa system destroys the whole concept of supply and demand. If your business can't hire workers, you will have to raise salaries. If you can't afford the higher salaries, you don't have a viable business (at least, without the use of wage arbitrage and indentured servants). The extra supply of labor will come into the market as soon as they're receiving signals that wages are rising, working conditions good, etc. Until then, it seems like a waste of time: why study really difficult software when you will be competing with folks willing to work much more cheaply. You might have to wait a bit for this pipeline to fix itself since you purposefully broke it this past decade by using visas to game the system.
  - sanswork 10y ago
    I've already responded to this claim in these comments. For what you say to be true there would need to be a large market of senior developers waiting in the wings refusing to work until wages go up. You're also assuming the growth in jobs has been steady and predictable which it hasn't a spoiler in demand runs the whole idea that we just need more juniors starting. The problem is companies can't wait so they can bring in workers who pay taxes here and contribute to the economy or they can move there jobs over seas. I expect we'll be seeing a lot more of the latter going forward.
sanswork 10y ago
So you are claiming that the only thing holding you back from progressing your career is that you don't want to do more work for what you see as not enough money? If that is true you suffer from some serious short sightedness in regards to your career. AND you don't have any experience in the topic.
- brokenmachine 10y ago
  Well, we're only talking about me now, but I have pretty much decided that I do not want to progress any further in my current direction. I'm on a pretty good pay now and the work situation is acceptable. I am investigating ways to invest the money I have made/am still making in the best ways for the best possible return, and also looking to downshift by pursuing projects/businesses in my free time that I am simply interested in - that have no guarantee of financial success, while also looking into the possibility of moving to a less expensive part of the country. I am not looking for a promotion which includes taking on more stress and less free time in exchange for an insufficient pay increase. It would need to be significant for me to take the chance, and from what I have seen out there, I haven't found anything that would satisfy me, although if I was actually out of work now perhaps I would accept less. If that makes me unqualified in your opinion to comment about whether pays are sufficient for exactly the type of job that I'd be applying for, I don't care. I also don't care if you think I'm ambitious enough. I'm very sure I wouldn't want to work for you anyway. There was even an out-of-work dev commenting that he was looking for work in this very thread. I don't know what more I can say.
  - sanswork 10y ago
    edit: I was being a dick here It does make you unqualified because you haven't been on there other side of the table trying to hire ever. The only person I saw was looking to change jobs which is to say leave their current employer with a need for an intermediate developer.
    - brokenmachine 10y ago
      re: you being a dick. Yes we can all be dicks sometimes but that was incorrect as well as rude. Of course I have considered negotiating. It's absolutely none of your business of course but I work government so no possibility of negotiation. I am on the highest pay grade I can get with my skills without a complete change of occupation, and tbh I feel I'm getting an ok deal for the amount of stress I have with my pay and conditions. Especially so when I work closely with people in different roles that are getting completely exploited pay-wise in my opinion. I know it'd be more work doing stuff for myself but at least I'd have more control over my own destiny, plus the possibility that it would work out very well, which I don't have now working a 9-to-5. It'd be pretty disappointing if it fell in a flaming heap though. Well, I do feel that being a prospective employee makes me qualified to comment, so there you go. Just because I haven't put a job ad up with an artificially lowered pay and had no applicants doesn't mean I haven't seen what's on offer out there. Have you considered, like people have been saying in these comments, that you may not have been getting applicants (such as myself) because the conditions or pay weren't as reasonable as you think? ie, Do you really think if you doubled the pay you were offering you wouldn't have got more applicants? If I left my job, for argument's sake, say to work at your place, someone with a lower level of skill could start at my old job and learn it as they go, like I had to with little training so many years ago. Some old people leave, some new people start. I think there's lots of skilled people out there. We shouldn't be bringing in slave labour from overseas so we can continue with our artificially lowered pays. If we're going to do capitalism we might as well do it properly... So if your business can't afford to pay what its costs are, then it is not a viable business. Also obviously that guy who did apply was not happy with the pay or conditions at the place he was working at, so there's that. Anyway we obviously don't see eye-to-eye on this issue.