5 ms·

There's no reason to go out of your way to create the feeling of an in-group and an out-group.

by eli 10y ago

Karunamon 10y ago
There's also no reason to go out of your way to demand that the author of a tool structure their readme doc according to your own personal opinion on social norms in the context of a damned update monitoring tool - especially for something as utterly inoffensive as "bruh".
- bisby 10y ago
  damned open source update monitoring tool, where you can change the verbiage if you really don't like it. if you like the idea and not the verbiage, change it. if you like the idea and dont mind the verbiage, no issue. if you dont like the idea, then you dont need the tool
- sametmax 10y ago
  The guy is providing a free tool coded on his own time without being paid. He can write the README the god damn way he wants.
  - jakelazaroff 10y ago
    This is a community, and they're using alienating language. The fact that they did it for free has nothing to do with whether or not we should discourage that behavior.
    - Karunamon 10y ago
      alienating language By what definition created by who?
      - jakelazaroff 10y ago
        There's plenty of research and best practices on how language can be inclusive or exclusive. Here are some links if you're interested: - https://qz.com/797559/gender-bias-job-listings-language/ https://qz.com/797559/gender-bias-job-listings-language/ - http://writingcenter.unc.edu/handouts/gender-inclusive-language/ http://writingcenter.unc.edu/handouts/gender-inclusive-langu... - https://mit.uloop.com/news/view.php/206562/On-Inclusive-Language https://mit.uloop.com/news/view.php/206562/On-Inclusive-Lang...
        Karunamon 10y ago
        That is an answer to a question I didn't ask. As I explained in the other reply, you'd need to simultaneously prove: * That "bruh" is sexually "excluding language" * That an actual reasonable person feels "excluded" from using this update monitoring tool based on humor in its readme. So far, you have done none of those things. Your links argue that sexually exclusionary language 1. exists and 2. is a problem. Nothing more.
        jakelazaroff 10y ago
        > By what definition created by who? What definition: - language that feels unwelcoming to people (all three articles) - language that studies show excludes people (Quartz article) Who: - people affected by exclusive language (MIT article) - people who research exclusive language (Quartz article) > * That "bruh" is sexually "excluding language" It's gendered language, which all the aforelinked sources list as exclusive > * That an actual reasonable person feels "excluded" from using this update monitoring tool based on humor in its readme. We don't need to prove the same case over and over for every single word. Gendered terms have been shown to be exclusive + "bruh" is a gendered term = bruh is exclusive
        deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
        Karunamon 10y ago
        Gendered terms have been shown to be exclusive ..in certain contexts, where maximum inclusivity is the actual goal, if not the law. Why is maximum inclusivity the goal here, again? Why must it be? My earlier assessment appears to be correct. No person can be pointed to that actually feels excluded by this, and so all this sturm und drang is about hypothetical straw people. This conversation is no longer interesting.
    - coldtea 10y ago
      >This is a community No, it's not. It's just users that take free advantage of whatever that person is offering gratis. And perhaps some more that he'd like to work with him on this -- the rest that don't like his language can take a hike.
    - sametmax 10y ago
      So ? The author doesn't owe you any behavior as long as it's legal. Freedom of speech doesn't mean he can do only things as long as they don't offend anyone. Close the tab man, it's a click away. We will enjoy the work while you can be at peace. He is not invading your safe space. Now let us back to important things like deliver software thanks to contributors like him.
- duiker101 10y ago
  Without heating up the discussion. I think it depends. If you want you tool or else be just "a damned x whatever" then you can feel free to use whatever lingo you want. But if you would like to be taken seriously then a more appropriate language might be needed. And it's not to be uppity or anything, it's just that the broader the audience, the more understandable and out of your "in-group" it has to be. If that's what you want obviously. There is nothing wrong with wanting something to stay just "in".
  - Karunamon 10y ago
    But if you would like to be taken seriously I'm not sure this is. And if it really bothers (the collective) you that badly: git clone && rm README.md There is nothing wrong with wanting something to stay just "in". The relative tone of this thread and its popularity has me convinced that many are willing to change their culture to match random demands regardless of the objective merit of those demands. Hell, without even critically examining the merit of those demands. "This language is alienating!" Says who? And why? Why is this a statement to be taken at pure face value by someone who isn't even claiming to be offended? I find that lack of principled objection to be horridly offensive, but that's just me.
    - Retric 10y ago
      And why? If your word choice means 50+% of the target population has no idea what you mean then it's a poor choice.
      - Karunamon 10y ago
        If the goal of the author was to do anything other than sprinkle in some inoffensive humor. ("wat", "performance gainnzzzz") Not everyone gets every joke after all :)
- eli 10y ago
  What? Who demanded changes?
stouset 10y ago
That you think this is intentional unfortunately probably reinforces GP's point. This is how the "get off my lawn" mentality happens. Older generations don't just become cranky and cantankerous — society shifts out from under them in ways that go against the norms they're accustomed to while they hold the line on the way they perceive that things used to be. Note I'm not saying that this is the direction things are ultimately going to shift toward. Just that this example is symptomatic of how generational culture shifts happen. I've already noticed this in myself, and I'm just past thirty. I just don't "get" Snapchat, for example. It's perhaps just one thing right now, but culture changes aren't independent of one-another. You hop off the bandwagon but it keeps going and only ever becomes harder to hop back on.

There's no reason to go out of your way to create the feeling of an in-group and an out-group.

by eli 10y ago

There's no reason to go out of your way to create the feeling of an in-group and an out-group.

There's also no reason to go out of your way to demand that the author of a tool structure their readme doc according to your own personal opinion on social norms in the context of a damned update monitoring tool - especially for something as utterly inoffensive as "bruh".

bisby 10y ago
damned open source update monitoring tool, where you can change the verbiage if you really don't like it. if you like the idea and not the verbiage, change it. if you like the idea and dont mind the verbiage, no issue. if you dont like the idea, then you dont need the tool
sametmax 10y ago
The guy is providing a free tool coded on his own time without being paid. He can write the README the god damn way he wants.
- jakelazaroff 10y ago
  This is a community, and they're using alienating language. The fact that they did it for free has nothing to do with whether or not we should discourage that behavior.
  - Karunamon 10y ago
    alienating language By what definition created by who?
    - jakelazaroff 10y ago
      There's plenty of research and best practices on how language can be inclusive or exclusive. Here are some links if you're interested: - https://qz.com/797559/gender-bias-job-listings-language/ https://qz.com/797559/gender-bias-job-listings-language/ - http://writingcenter.unc.edu/handouts/gender-inclusive-language/ http://writingcenter.unc.edu/handouts/gender-inclusive-langu... - https://mit.uloop.com/news/view.php/206562/On-Inclusive-Language https://mit.uloop.com/news/view.php/206562/On-Inclusive-Lang...
      - Karunamon 10y ago
        That is an answer to a question I didn't ask. As I explained in the other reply, you'd need to simultaneously prove: * That "bruh" is sexually "excluding language" * That an actual reasonable person feels "excluded" from using this update monitoring tool based on humor in its readme. So far, you have done none of those things. Your links argue that sexually exclusionary language 1. exists and 2. is a problem. Nothing more.
        jakelazaroff 10y ago
        > By what definition created by who? What definition: - language that feels unwelcoming to people (all three articles) - language that studies show excludes people (Quartz article) Who: - people affected by exclusive language (MIT article) - people who research exclusive language (Quartz article) > * That "bruh" is sexually "excluding language" It's gendered language, which all the aforelinked sources list as exclusive > * That an actual reasonable person feels "excluded" from using this update monitoring tool based on humor in its readme. We don't need to prove the same case over and over for every single word. Gendered terms have been shown to be exclusive + "bruh" is a gendered term = bruh is exclusive
        deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
        Karunamon 10y ago
        Gendered terms have been shown to be exclusive ..in certain contexts, where maximum inclusivity is the actual goal, if not the law. Why is maximum inclusivity the goal here, again? Why must it be? My earlier assessment appears to be correct. No person can be pointed to that actually feels excluded by this, and so all this sturm und drang is about hypothetical straw people. This conversation is no longer interesting.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >This is a community No, it's not. It's just users that take free advantage of whatever that person is offering gratis. And perhaps some more that he'd like to work with him on this -- the rest that don't like his language can take a hike.
  - sametmax 10y ago
    So ? The author doesn't owe you any behavior as long as it's legal. Freedom of speech doesn't mean he can do only things as long as they don't offend anyone. Close the tab man, it's a click away. We will enjoy the work while you can be at peace. He is not invading your safe space. Now let us back to important things like deliver software thanks to contributors like him.
duiker101 10y ago
Without heating up the discussion. I think it depends. If you want you tool or else be just "a damned x whatever" then you can feel free to use whatever lingo you want. But if you would like to be taken seriously then a more appropriate language might be needed. And it's not to be uppity or anything, it's just that the broader the audience, the more understandable and out of your "in-group" it has to be. If that's what you want obviously. There is nothing wrong with wanting something to stay just "in".
- Karunamon 10y ago
  But if you would like to be taken seriously I'm not sure this is. And if it really bothers (the collective) you that badly: git clone && rm README.md There is nothing wrong with wanting something to stay just "in". The relative tone of this thread and its popularity has me convinced that many are willing to change their culture to match random demands regardless of the objective merit of those demands. Hell, without even critically examining the merit of those demands. "This language is alienating!" Says who? And why? Why is this a statement to be taken at pure face value by someone who isn't even claiming to be offended? I find that lack of principled objection to be horridly offensive, but that's just me.
  - Retric 10y ago
    And why? If your word choice means 50+% of the target population has no idea what you mean then it's a poor choice.
    - Karunamon 10y ago
      If the goal of the author was to do anything other than sprinkle in some inoffensive humor. ("wat", "performance gainnzzzz") Not everyone gets every joke after all :)
eli 10y ago
What? Who demanded changes?

stouset 10y ago

That you think this is intentional unfortunately probably reinforces GP's point. This is how the "get off my lawn" mentality happens. Older generations don't just become cranky and cantankerous — society shifts out from under them in ways that go against the norms they're accustomed to while they hold the line on the way they perceive that things used to be. Note I'm not saying that this is the direction things are ultimately going to shift toward. Just that this example is symptomatic of how generational culture shifts happen. I've already noticed this in myself, and I'm just past thirty. I just don't "get" Snapchat, for example. It's perhaps just one thing right now, but culture changes aren't independent of one-another. You hop off the bandwagon but it keeps going and only ever becomes harder to hop back on.