8 ms·

It's probably a better indicator of their audience, the in-group. I don't know how old you are, but this is what it's like to become a square. The thing is, if

by rhizome 10y ago

It's probably a better indicator of their audience, the in-group. I don't know how old you are, but this is what it's like to become a square. The thing is, if you don't like it and get stuck on lingo, there's a good chance you're going to be left behind by the future. Your complaint is a symptom of falling into the out-group of the cutting edge, into becoming part of The Previous Generation.

eli 10y ago
There's no reason to go out of your way to create the feeling of an in-group and an out-group.
- Karunamon 10y ago
  There's also no reason to go out of your way to demand that the author of a tool structure their readme doc according to your own personal opinion on social norms in the context of a damned update monitoring tool - especially for something as utterly inoffensive as "bruh".
  - bisby 10y ago
    damned open source update monitoring tool, where you can change the verbiage if you really don't like it. if you like the idea and not the verbiage, change it. if you like the idea and dont mind the verbiage, no issue. if you dont like the idea, then you dont need the tool
  - sametmax 10y ago
    The guy is providing a free tool coded on his own time without being paid. He can write the README the god damn way he wants.
    - jakelazaroff 10y ago
      This is a community, and they're using alienating language. The fact that they did it for free has nothing to do with whether or not we should discourage that behavior.
      - Karunamon 10y ago
        alienating language By what definition created by who?
        jakelazaroff 10y ago
        There's plenty of research and best practices on how language can be inclusive or exclusive. Here are some links if you're interested: - https://qz.com/797559/gender-bias-job-listings-language/ https://qz.com/797559/gender-bias-job-listings-language/ - http://writingcenter.unc.edu/handouts/gender-inclusive-language/ http://writingcenter.unc.edu/handouts/gender-inclusive-langu... - https://mit.uloop.com/news/view.php/206562/On-Inclusive-Language https://mit.uloop.com/news/view.php/206562/On-Inclusive-Lang...
        Karunamon 10y ago
        That is an answer to a question I didn't ask. As I explained in the other reply, you'd need to simultaneously prove: * That "bruh" is sexually "excluding language" * That an actual reasonable person feels "excluded" from using this update monitoring tool based on humor in its readme. So far, you have done none of those things. Your links argue that sexually exclusionary language 1. exists and 2. is a problem. Nothing more.
        jakelazaroff 10y ago
        > By what definition created by who? What definition: - language that feels unwelcoming to people (all three articles) - language that studies show excludes people (Quartz article) Who: - people affected by exclusive language (MIT article) - people who research exclusive language (Quartz article) > * That "bruh" is sexually "excluding language" It's gendered language, which all the aforelinked sources list as exclusive > * That an actual reasonable person feels "excluded" from using this update monitoring tool based on humor in its readme. We don't need to prove the same case over and over for every single word. Gendered terms have been shown to be exclusive + "bruh" is a gendered term = bruh is exclusive
  - duiker101 10y ago
    Without heating up the discussion. I think it depends. If you want you tool or else be just "a damned x whatever" then you can feel free to use whatever lingo you want. But if you would like to be taken seriously then a more appropriate language might be needed. And it's not to be uppity or anything, it's just that the broader the audience, the more understandable and out of your "in-group" it has to be. If that's what you want obviously. There is nothing wrong with wanting something to stay just "in".
    - Karunamon 10y ago
      But if you would like to be taken seriously I'm not sure this is. And if it really bothers (the collective) you that badly: git clone && rm README.md There is nothing wrong with wanting something to stay just "in". The relative tone of this thread and its popularity has me convinced that many are willing to change their culture to match random demands regardless of the objective merit of those demands. Hell, without even critically examining the merit of those demands. "This language is alienating!" Says who? And why? Why is this a statement to be taken at pure face value by someone who isn't even claiming to be offended? I find that lack of principled objection to be horridly offensive, but that's just me.
      - Retric 10y ago
        And why? If your word choice means 50+% of the target population has no idea what you mean then it's a poor choice.
        Karunamon 10y ago
        If the goal of the author was to do anything other than sprinkle in some inoffensive humor. ("wat", "performance gainnzzzz") Not everyone gets every joke after all :)
  - eli 10y ago
    What? Who demanded changes?
- stouset 10y ago
  That you think this is intentional unfortunately probably reinforces GP's point. This is how the "get off my lawn" mentality happens. Older generations don't just become cranky and cantankerous — society shifts out from under them in ways that go against the norms they're accustomed to while they hold the line on the way they perceive that things used to be. Note I'm not saying that this is the direction things are ultimately going to shift toward. Just that this example is symptomatic of how generational culture shifts happen. I've already noticed this in myself, and I'm just past thirty. I just don't "get" Snapchat, for example. It's perhaps just one thing right now, but culture changes aren't independent of one-another. You hop off the bandwagon but it keeps going and only ever becomes harder to hop back on.
aaroninsf 10y ago
Disagree. Professionals push back towards professionalism, which should be free from micro-culture in jokes. The profession is international, and there are many indulging in this who do not have the perspective to recognize the actual cost of insularity. More to the point bro-grammer crap is explicitly barrier-raising. Clique-based behavior, however graced with knowing winks, led directly to the current crisis of culture in the Valley in general, and start-up culture in particular. As such it is most definitely at best in the category of funny-once. And the joke played out long ago.
- Karunamon 10y ago
  Says who? Who determines what professionalism means? Because I have a definition that states you use the best tool for the job at hand, rather than choosing (yes, choosing) to complain loudly about poorly-described-and-argued ancillary matters which don't directly impact the operation of said tool. I reject the idea that "professionalism" means that the cheeky, mischevious humor that has basically defined the hacker spirit for decades must be stamped out or suppressed.
  - jakelazaroff 10y ago
    So where do we draw the line when that "cheeky, mischievous humor" actually excludes people from our community? Words matter. There are plenty of studies that show e.g. certain language in job listings discourages women from applying: https://qz.com/797559/gender-bias-job-listings-language/ https://qz.com/797559/gender-bias-job-listings-language/
    - Karunamon 10y ago
      So where do we draw the line when that "cheeky, mischievous humor" actually excludes people from our community? When it can be reasonably proven that this is actually happening in this case. A reasonable start would be finding a real (as opposed to straw) person who feels "excluded". If "bruh" is legitimately "excluding people from the community" in this context (And let's be honest here: a job posting is not equivalent in any way to a readme on a git repo), then by all means, let's have the conversation. If it isn't? This is all just noise. Worse, actively harmful and distracting noise.
debaserab2 10y ago
I'm pretty sure there are people working on "the cutting edge" of tech that are capable of communicating like adults and not a college fratboy. The vast majority, actually.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- throwasehasdwi 10y ago
  Chill breh, a lot of devs in SV were college fratboys. I don't see anything wrong with their vernacular leaking into development. You act like being in a frat is an insult. I don't think people should have to stick to any "business speak" when working on open source software. You're doing it for fun, and for free, who cares?
  - CrystalLangUser 10y ago
    Because 1) it's seen as juvenile at best and 2) seen as off-putting towards non-bro people (specifically, women) who aren't in the "in-group". It has nothing to do with insulting frats, just that particular language which is "frat-ish". Does this matter in personal open-source projects? Not really, forking is a thing. When working with others / at a job, sure.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - Thisplacesucks1 10y ago
      You sound like a loser
    - throwasehasdwi 10y ago
      > seen as off-putting towards non-bro people (specifically, women) who aren't in the "in-group" Have you talked to anyone in a sorority? Its a fraternity for females and they share the same speech quirks. >. It has nothing to do with insulting frats, just that particular language which is "frat-ish". That's nice, do you also take offense to things like ebonics because they seem "black-ish"? I think you're being unintentionally insensitive because you're blind to your own prejudice
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
tbabb 10y ago
I think there's intentional irony in the use of those brogrammer terms which is going over the heads of those offended here-- further reinforcing the "square" diagnosis. It's humor. Lighthearted humor, and it's pretty hilarious to see everyone here get completely puffed up and bent out of shape about it, entirely because It Doesn't Conform To The Language Convention You're Supposed To Use Here.
CrystalLangUser 10y ago
Well then I'm 20 and a square. "Bro talk" isn't 'hip', it's just a way certain types/groups of people talk (frat bros / gym bros). It routinely gets mocked by people my age.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- rhizome 10y ago
  A lot of subcultural behavior is mocked and derided, but the fact is that subcultures produce their own language markers as shibboleths. This goes back at least 3000 years.
  - CrystalLangUser 10y ago
    Yes, but that doesn't have anything to do with just age, which is what the parent was trying to assert. People do talk like this, but certainly not everyone. Outside of actual frats and sororities in colleges, this isn't common at all except in jest.
nathan_f77 10y ago
I don't know, I'm nearly 30, and I know a few people in their 30s or 40s who often talk like this as a joke. I think that's the tone of that README. It's just meant to be funny.

by rhizome 10y ago

eli 10y ago

There's no reason to go out of your way to create the feeling of an in-group and an out-group.

Karunamon 10y ago
There's also no reason to go out of your way to demand that the author of a tool structure their readme doc according to your own personal opinion on social norms in the context of a damned update monitoring tool - especially for something as utterly inoffensive as "bruh".
- bisby 10y ago
  damned open source update monitoring tool, where you can change the verbiage if you really don't like it. if you like the idea and not the verbiage, change it. if you like the idea and dont mind the verbiage, no issue. if you dont like the idea, then you dont need the tool
- sametmax 10y ago
  The guy is providing a free tool coded on his own time without being paid. He can write the README the god damn way he wants.
  - jakelazaroff 10y ago
    This is a community, and they're using alienating language. The fact that they did it for free has nothing to do with whether or not we should discourage that behavior.
    - Karunamon 10y ago
      alienating language By what definition created by who?
      - jakelazaroff 10y ago
        There's plenty of research and best practices on how language can be inclusive or exclusive. Here are some links if you're interested: - https://qz.com/797559/gender-bias-job-listings-language/ https://qz.com/797559/gender-bias-job-listings-language/ - http://writingcenter.unc.edu/handouts/gender-inclusive-language/ http://writingcenter.unc.edu/handouts/gender-inclusive-langu... - https://mit.uloop.com/news/view.php/206562/On-Inclusive-Language https://mit.uloop.com/news/view.php/206562/On-Inclusive-Lang...
        Karunamon 10y ago
        That is an answer to a question I didn't ask. As I explained in the other reply, you'd need to simultaneously prove: * That "bruh" is sexually "excluding language" * That an actual reasonable person feels "excluded" from using this update monitoring tool based on humor in its readme. So far, you have done none of those things. Your links argue that sexually exclusionary language 1. exists and 2. is a problem. Nothing more.
        jakelazaroff 10y ago
        > By what definition created by who? What definition: - language that feels unwelcoming to people (all three articles) - language that studies show excludes people (Quartz article) Who: - people affected by exclusive language (MIT article) - people who research exclusive language (Quartz article) > * That "bruh" is sexually "excluding language" It's gendered language, which all the aforelinked sources list as exclusive > * That an actual reasonable person feels "excluded" from using this update monitoring tool based on humor in its readme. We don't need to prove the same case over and over for every single word. Gendered terms have been shown to be exclusive + "bruh" is a gendered term = bruh is exclusive
- duiker101 10y ago
  Without heating up the discussion. I think it depends. If you want you tool or else be just "a damned x whatever" then you can feel free to use whatever lingo you want. But if you would like to be taken seriously then a more appropriate language might be needed. And it's not to be uppity or anything, it's just that the broader the audience, the more understandable and out of your "in-group" it has to be. If that's what you want obviously. There is nothing wrong with wanting something to stay just "in".
  - Karunamon 10y ago
    But if you would like to be taken seriously I'm not sure this is. And if it really bothers (the collective) you that badly: git clone && rm README.md There is nothing wrong with wanting something to stay just "in". The relative tone of this thread and its popularity has me convinced that many are willing to change their culture to match random demands regardless of the objective merit of those demands. Hell, without even critically examining the merit of those demands. "This language is alienating!" Says who? And why? Why is this a statement to be taken at pure face value by someone who isn't even claiming to be offended? I find that lack of principled objection to be horridly offensive, but that's just me.
    - Retric 10y ago
      And why? If your word choice means 50+% of the target population has no idea what you mean then it's a poor choice.
      - Karunamon 10y ago
        If the goal of the author was to do anything other than sprinkle in some inoffensive humor. ("wat", "performance gainnzzzz") Not everyone gets every joke after all :)
- eli 10y ago
  What? Who demanded changes?
stouset 10y ago
That you think this is intentional unfortunately probably reinforces GP's point. This is how the "get off my lawn" mentality happens. Older generations don't just become cranky and cantankerous — society shifts out from under them in ways that go against the norms they're accustomed to while they hold the line on the way they perceive that things used to be. Note I'm not saying that this is the direction things are ultimately going to shift toward. Just that this example is symptomatic of how generational culture shifts happen. I've already noticed this in myself, and I'm just past thirty. I just don't "get" Snapchat, for example. It's perhaps just one thing right now, but culture changes aren't independent of one-another. You hop off the bandwagon but it keeps going and only ever becomes harder to hop back on.

aaroninsf 10y ago

Disagree. Professionals push back towards professionalism, which should be free from micro-culture in jokes. The profession is international, and there are many indulging in this who do not have the perspective to recognize the actual cost of insularity. More to the point bro-grammer crap is explicitly barrier-raising. Clique-based behavior, however graced with knowing winks, led directly to the current crisis of culture in the Valley in general, and start-up culture in particular. As such it is most definitely at best in the category of funny-once. And the joke played out long ago.

Karunamon 10y ago
Says who? Who determines what professionalism means? Because I have a definition that states you use the best tool for the job at hand, rather than choosing (yes, choosing) to complain loudly about poorly-described-and-argued ancillary matters which don't directly impact the operation of said tool. I reject the idea that "professionalism" means that the cheeky, mischevious humor that has basically defined the hacker spirit for decades must be stamped out or suppressed.
- jakelazaroff 10y ago
  So where do we draw the line when that "cheeky, mischievous humor" actually excludes people from our community? Words matter. There are plenty of studies that show e.g. certain language in job listings discourages women from applying: https://qz.com/797559/gender-bias-job-listings-language/ https://qz.com/797559/gender-bias-job-listings-language/
  - Karunamon 10y ago
    So where do we draw the line when that "cheeky, mischievous humor" actually excludes people from our community? When it can be reasonably proven that this is actually happening in this case. A reasonable start would be finding a real (as opposed to straw) person who feels "excluded". If "bruh" is legitimately "excluding people from the community" in this context (And let's be honest here: a job posting is not equivalent in any way to a readme on a git repo), then by all means, let's have the conversation. If it isn't? This is all just noise. Worse, actively harmful and distracting noise.

debaserab2 10y ago

I'm pretty sure there are people working on "the cutting edge" of tech that are capable of communicating like adults and not a college fratboy. The vast majority, actually.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
throwasehasdwi 10y ago
Chill breh, a lot of devs in SV were college fratboys. I don't see anything wrong with their vernacular leaking into development. You act like being in a frat is an insult. I don't think people should have to stick to any "business speak" when working on open source software. You're doing it for fun, and for free, who cares?
- CrystalLangUser 10y ago
  Because 1) it's seen as juvenile at best and 2) seen as off-putting towards non-bro people (specifically, women) who aren't in the "in-group". It has nothing to do with insulting frats, just that particular language which is "frat-ish". Does this matter in personal open-source projects? Not really, forking is a thing. When working with others / at a job, sure.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - Thisplacesucks1 10y ago
    You sound like a loser
  - throwasehasdwi 10y ago
    > seen as off-putting towards non-bro people (specifically, women) who aren't in the "in-group" Have you talked to anyone in a sorority? Its a fraternity for females and they share the same speech quirks. >. It has nothing to do with insulting frats, just that particular language which is "frat-ish". That's nice, do you also take offense to things like ebonics because they seem "black-ish"? I think you're being unintentionally insensitive because you're blind to your own prejudice

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

tbabb 10y ago

I think there's intentional irony in the use of those brogrammer terms which is going over the heads of those offended here-- further reinforcing the "square" diagnosis. It's humor. Lighthearted humor, and it's pretty hilarious to see everyone here get completely puffed up and bent out of shape about it, entirely because It Doesn't Conform To The Language Convention You're Supposed To Use Here.

CrystalLangUser 10y ago

Well then I'm 20 and a square. "Bro talk" isn't 'hip', it's just a way certain types/groups of people talk (frat bros / gym bros). It routinely gets mocked by people my age.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
rhizome 10y ago
A lot of subcultural behavior is mocked and derided, but the fact is that subcultures produce their own language markers as shibboleths. This goes back at least 3000 years.
- CrystalLangUser 10y ago
  Yes, but that doesn't have anything to do with just age, which is what the parent was trying to assert. People do talk like this, but certainly not everyone. Outside of actual frats and sororities in colleges, this isn't common at all except in jest.

nathan_f77 10y ago

I don't know, I'm nearly 30, and I know a few people in their 30s or 40s who often talk like this as a joke. I think that's the tone of that README. It's just meant to be funny.