4 ms·

That's right, we should always strive to assess technical projects based on how the author communicates.

cbhl 9y ago
I realize you're being sarcastic, but certain forms of communication anecdotally correlate with inappropriate behavior (harassment, offensive verbal remarks, stalking, gender discrimination). Even if the tone is being used facetiously -- especially when it is being used facetiously -- we must be clear in communicating what behavior is and isn't acceptable. Failing to do so makes women feel uncomfortable, and teaches impressionable young coders (the college kids that typically have time to write sarcastic open-source one-off projects) that this kind of thing is okay.
- praneshp 9y ago
  > Failing to do so makes women feel uncomfortable Honest question, are you a woman? I generally agree that our industry has to do a lot more work to make everyone feel included and utilize all the talent available. But I disagree that using the word 'bruh' should be discouraged, or that it correlates with inappropriate behavior. Especially if it's anecdotal, its just correlation, not causation, and shouldn't be read into. (Unless 'bruh' has a meaning other than 'bro', short for 'brother', that I don't know about).
  - jayqui 9y ago
    Shouldn't we err on the side of not excluding or offending people if there's a reasonable possibility that we would be?
    - Karunamon 9y ago
      Is anyone legitimately offended by the word "bruh", or is this whole thread just tedious virtue signaling which contributes absolutely nothing of substance? Given the absence of anyone claiming to be in the first category, I'm forced to conclude it's the second. Let's make sure a problem actually exists before going out of our way to solve it, hm?
      - debaserab2 9y ago
        I don't feel excluded or offended (although I completely understand that argument), but using language like that makes me less likely to want to engage with you because I find it immature. I find the way it contorts english grammar detracts from content and dilutes the message. If there was something funny about it I'd find it much easier to ignore, but all it's communicating is that you identify with a particular subculture in our industry that I find to be immature. It's just a turn off and a bad first impression. That said, if I needed it I'd probably still use it regardless.
      - bshimmin 9y ago
        I don't find it offensive, but I did find it quite annoying, likewise "Wat?" and "AF", and I thought to myself that it was a shame that what appears to be a useful tool had a README littered with this twee, cliquey stuff that I find somewhere between boring, irrelevant, and annoying, and certainly never funny. I don't know if I'm a square, yet, but I'm definitely a curmudgeon, especially when I'm hungry. (As a passing observation, I might also add that any conversation which features the magical expression "virtue signalling" is unlikely ever to be a valuable one.)
        Karunamon 9y ago
        Fair enough, but that's humor. Not everyone gets everything. I'm pushing 30 and still get silly giggles out of things like Bernhardt's "Wat" talk [1]. As for virtue signaling, it is a thing that exists[2], and writing off any conversation where one points out that it's happening is probably doing themselves a disservice. Much like any other kind of social signaling, it doesn't even necessarily happen consciously. [1]: https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat [2]: https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/2701968/virtue-signalling-meaning-origin-examples/ https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/2701968/virtue-signalling-me...
        bshimmin 9y ago
        I like the "Wat" talk too, and it's maybe about the only time that "Wat" has really ever seemed appropriate to me! In my experience of conversations featuring the phrase "virtue signalling", I can only say that by the time that term is introduced, they are already worthless bullshit, or very shortly afterwards they are at considerable risk of becoming it. I'm sure it's a real thing that really happens, but I'm not certain that pointing it out ever actually does any good. (Somewhat amusingly, your second link contained topless nudity just to the right of the main image, at least for me. I guess that's what happens when you link to The Sun, which is broadly regarded in the UK as a newspaper of ill repute.)
    - praneshp 9y ago
      But what offensive meaning does the word carry? I edited my comment to ask that, possibly after you replied. If it has no negative meanings, I wouldn't want to be part of a cultural movement to create a negative connotation on the word. People grow out of using such words themselves.
    - mixedCase 9y ago
      I don't know, shouldn't you? Isn't judging people so harshly for informal vocabulary used with a jovial intent and no obvious negative connotation (unless you dig deep down into particular Internet subcultures), an exclusionary and offensive practice?
    - coldtea 9y ago
      Maybe we should err on the side of not offending the creator of some software we can now use for free?
    - reitanqild 9y ago
      Yes. Thats what we normally do. You don't see me writing about how a certain gender or ethnic group are dumber than others (as a country man on HN I feel I am on the receiving end of that sometimes though). For the definitions used here though, no: I have realized that once we start living by some of your rules you just invent more. So I'm OK with not complaining about swearing and hope that others are OK with me writing a straightforward he/she or (s)he instead of spending valuable time on not offending people who are trying to be offended.
- travisjungroth 9y ago
  Your second paragraph has made a huge leap. It's not fair to say that allowing young men to talk like young men condones terrible behavior. These aren't white supremacist dog whistles. I think your response is totally appropriate if the package included "14/88" and "HH". It's over the top and betrays your own biases against men when pointed at "bruh" and "gainz".
- ElatedOwl 9y ago
  >bruh >gainz These terms come from the fitness world. At first glance, it seems you're implying that the fitness world is full of gender discrimination etc. FWIW bro (brah, bruh, etc.) is commonly used gender neutrally, much like dude. I'm all for inclusion but I would hardly consider facetiously using brah and gainz as offensive or misogynistic.
- CrystalLangUser 9y ago
  > teaches impressionable young coders (the college kids that typically have time to write sarcastic open-source one-off projects) that this kind of thing is okay. Teaching that what, exactly is ok? Using the word "bruh"? In all seriousness, how old are you? Plenty of people use that word, and it's not just guys. Is it on the immature side? Yes, but it's not really condoning whatever behavior. Unless you have data backing that assertion, you are just projecting from a mere readme file.
earthtolazlo 9y ago
This, but unironically.
debaserab2 9y ago
Correct. That's an incredibly important attribute of all technical projects.

cbhl 9y ago

I realize you're being sarcastic, but certain forms of communication anecdotally correlate with inappropriate behavior (harassment, offensive verbal remarks, stalking, gender discrimination). Even if the tone is being used facetiously -- especially when it is being used facetiously -- we must be clear in communicating what behavior is and isn't acceptable. Failing to do so makes women feel uncomfortable, and teaches impressionable young coders (the college kids that typically have time to write sarcastic open-source one-off projects) that this kind of thing is okay.

praneshp 9y ago
> Failing to do so makes women feel uncomfortable Honest question, are you a woman? I generally agree that our industry has to do a lot more work to make everyone feel included and utilize all the talent available. But I disagree that using the word 'bruh' should be discouraged, or that it correlates with inappropriate behavior. Especially if it's anecdotal, its just correlation, not causation, and shouldn't be read into. (Unless 'bruh' has a meaning other than 'bro', short for 'brother', that I don't know about).
- jayqui 9y ago
  Shouldn't we err on the side of not excluding or offending people if there's a reasonable possibility that we would be?
  - Karunamon 9y ago
    Is anyone legitimately offended by the word "bruh", or is this whole thread just tedious virtue signaling which contributes absolutely nothing of substance? Given the absence of anyone claiming to be in the first category, I'm forced to conclude it's the second. Let's make sure a problem actually exists before going out of our way to solve it, hm?
    - debaserab2 9y ago
      I don't feel excluded or offended (although I completely understand that argument), but using language like that makes me less likely to want to engage with you because I find it immature. I find the way it contorts english grammar detracts from content and dilutes the message. If there was something funny about it I'd find it much easier to ignore, but all it's communicating is that you identify with a particular subculture in our industry that I find to be immature. It's just a turn off and a bad first impression. That said, if I needed it I'd probably still use it regardless.
    - bshimmin 9y ago
      I don't find it offensive, but I did find it quite annoying, likewise "Wat?" and "AF", and I thought to myself that it was a shame that what appears to be a useful tool had a README littered with this twee, cliquey stuff that I find somewhere between boring, irrelevant, and annoying, and certainly never funny. I don't know if I'm a square, yet, but I'm definitely a curmudgeon, especially when I'm hungry. (As a passing observation, I might also add that any conversation which features the magical expression "virtue signalling" is unlikely ever to be a valuable one.)
      - Karunamon 9y ago
        Fair enough, but that's humor. Not everyone gets everything. I'm pushing 30 and still get silly giggles out of things like Bernhardt's "Wat" talk [1]. As for virtue signaling, it is a thing that exists[2], and writing off any conversation where one points out that it's happening is probably doing themselves a disservice. Much like any other kind of social signaling, it doesn't even necessarily happen consciously. [1]: https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat [2]: https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/2701968/virtue-signalling-meaning-origin-examples/ https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/2701968/virtue-signalling-me...
        bshimmin 9y ago
        I like the "Wat" talk too, and it's maybe about the only time that "Wat" has really ever seemed appropriate to me! In my experience of conversations featuring the phrase "virtue signalling", I can only say that by the time that term is introduced, they are already worthless bullshit, or very shortly afterwards they are at considerable risk of becoming it. I'm sure it's a real thing that really happens, but I'm not certain that pointing it out ever actually does any good. (Somewhat amusingly, your second link contained topless nudity just to the right of the main image, at least for me. I guess that's what happens when you link to The Sun, which is broadly regarded in the UK as a newspaper of ill repute.)
  - praneshp 9y ago
    But what offensive meaning does the word carry? I edited my comment to ask that, possibly after you replied. If it has no negative meanings, I wouldn't want to be part of a cultural movement to create a negative connotation on the word. People grow out of using such words themselves.
  - mixedCase 9y ago
    I don't know, shouldn't you? Isn't judging people so harshly for informal vocabulary used with a jovial intent and no obvious negative connotation (unless you dig deep down into particular Internet subcultures), an exclusionary and offensive practice?
  - coldtea 9y ago
    Maybe we should err on the side of not offending the creator of some software we can now use for free?
  - reitanqild 9y ago
    Yes. Thats what we normally do. You don't see me writing about how a certain gender or ethnic group are dumber than others (as a country man on HN I feel I am on the receiving end of that sometimes though). For the definitions used here though, no: I have realized that once we start living by some of your rules you just invent more. So I'm OK with not complaining about swearing and hope that others are OK with me writing a straightforward he/she or (s)he instead of spending valuable time on not offending people who are trying to be offended.
travisjungroth 9y ago
Your second paragraph has made a huge leap. It's not fair to say that allowing young men to talk like young men condones terrible behavior. These aren't white supremacist dog whistles. I think your response is totally appropriate if the package included "14/88" and "HH". It's over the top and betrays your own biases against men when pointed at "bruh" and "gainz".
ElatedOwl 9y ago
>bruh >gainz These terms come from the fitness world. At first glance, it seems you're implying that the fitness world is full of gender discrimination etc. FWIW bro (brah, bruh, etc.) is commonly used gender neutrally, much like dude. I'm all for inclusion but I would hardly consider facetiously using brah and gainz as offensive or misogynistic.
CrystalLangUser 9y ago
> teaches impressionable young coders (the college kids that typically have time to write sarcastic open-source one-off projects) that this kind of thing is okay. Teaching that what, exactly is ok? Using the word "bruh"? In all seriousness, how old are you? Plenty of people use that word, and it's not just guys. Is it on the immature side? Yes, but it's not really condoning whatever behavior. Unless you have data backing that assertion, you are just projecting from a mere readme file.

earthtolazlo 9y ago

This, but unironically.

debaserab2 9y ago

Correct. That's an incredibly important attribute of all technical projects.