4 ms·

Direct quote from the first subject: "I got used to living in an unstable situation and figured somehow it would work out" That last bit is illusory thinking.

by phs318u 10y ago

Direct quote from the first subject: "I got used to living in an unstable situation and figured somehow it would work out" That last bit is illusory thinking. Also, I'd beg to differ on your suggestion that these people aren't choosing their life every single day. I'd suggest the opposite is true for most of us (leaving aside those who through incapacity have diminished options). Every single day you don't make an effort to look for work, don't volunteer for something, don't organise an activity, don't spend some time learning something, don't go somewhere to meet people, don't go on a date - you are making a choice. Living with your parents and (more importantly) living off your parents well into your fifties is not an accident. You can't accidentally do that. That is directly the result of daily choices and illusory thinking. And while we can agreee that the term "parasite" is pejorative, I find it is deserved- at least from the perspective of the parent (who in this case is probably as much to blame for this situation). My daughters are 20 and 18 and the expectation has long been set in our family that they will be moving out once they're in stable employment (and by that I mean any job that can pay their bills, not their dream job). When both kids are out of the house, we'll downsize and share some of the cashed out equity to help them get started on the property ladder. Then they're on their own. In our family we refer to this as "The Plan". They've been hearing about the Plan (and been onboard) since their early teens.

sandworm101 10y ago
>>> ... they will be moving out once they're in stable employment. Have you met any 20-somethings in stable employment? Unless your daughters are supermodels or have PHDs in biotech they are in for at least a decade of contract work and constant job-hunting. Even those at their dream jobs know they stand on the knife's edge. And the property ladder, the average home price in my area is over 500k and closer to 1m if you want to be in driving distance of any "stable" job. Even with the 20% down payment only top earners even qualify for a loan. I hope you are ready to co-sign their mortgages.
- sanderjd 10y ago
  Where do you live? I know 20-somethings with stable jobs. Housing is expensive, but with good credit, it isn't hard to get a pretty big mortgage, even with much less than 20% down. I'm usually sympathetic to this sort of argument - I do think it's quite a bit harder for young people to get started than it was in the fairly recent past, but your comment seems hyperbolic.
  - sandworm101 10y ago
    Canada - Average house price in the country just hit 550k, and that includes all the stuff in the VAST country. Within the cities, the only places for young people to find jobs, prices are closer to 1mil. http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/crea-march-figures-1.4073540 http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/crea-march-figures-1.4073540 For a 400k loan, with 100k down, a Canadian bank will want to see an income of at least 80k/year before taxes. That number (80k) puts one in the top 10% of earners. So to buy the average house (500k) one must be in the top 10% of earners. To buy the average house in a city you better earn closer to 180k, putting you well into the top 1% of earners. So for the vast majority of young people home ownership isn't a reasonable option even in the long term. Anyone can play around with the numbers here: https://tools.td.com/mortgage-affordability-calculator/ https://tools.td.com/mortgage-affordability-calculator/ The example I always return to is the military. An officer in a nation's military should be able to buy a house and have a family in a degree of comfort. That was my grandfather. Today, officers rent apartments in full knowledge that home ownership will never happen so long as they remain officers. An RCAF pilot, an elite officer in any military, earns between 75 and 100k. With a young family and perhaps a student loan, that fighter pilot won't ever own a house. It is worse for naval officers, who generally need to live near cities/ports.
    - e15ctr0n 10y ago
      As many as 78% of adults in the Toronto area are still living with their parents, a trend "driven more by high house prices and an increasingly unstable job market for young adults". Toronto’s Housing Boom Refills Empty Nests, Driving Prices Even Higher | March 12, 2017 https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/12/world/canada/torontos-housing-boom-refills-empty-nests-driving-prices-even-higher.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/12/world/canada/torontos-hou...
- eximius 10y ago
  I am a 20 something who was hired for a salaried position shortly after graduation with a bachelors degree in math. I bought a house less than a year later (granted, with an FHA loan and less than the traditional 20% down). Most of my friends in a major field of engineering or computer science are just fine as well (IT-degrees and almost comp sci degrees don't fair as well). The world is not as dismal as it may seem for millenials. It's just that demand for STEM +CS continues to grow while the demand for other fields is stagnant, relying on people leaving the workforce to create new openings.
  - iphonethrowaway 10y ago
    Just curious, did you have a stable upbringing, two parents and did you and your friends belong to the middle class?
    - eximius 10y ago
      Yes. Not sure what precisely defines middle class, we might have been at the upper end of it. Private schools, we lived overseas for a while.
  - closeparen 10y ago
    We're getting paid high dollar amounts while Silicon Valley is in boom, but the fact that they're contingent on appearing daily in Bay Area offices means the long-term stability of home ownership is off the table for us. And with booms come busts: many of us work for companies that hemorrhage investor cash. Even if your present employer is stable, it seems likely that tens of thousands of us will be competing with you for your next job, and bidding down its wages. In making high-dollar salaries, we're doing better than most, but don't confuse $150k Senior Engineer positions for 25-year-olds at 5-year-old companies with long-term stability.
  - RandomOpinion 10y ago
    > I am a 20 something who was hired for a salaried position shortly after graduation with a bachelors degree in math. ... The world is not as dismal as it may seem for millenials. It's just that demand for STEM + CS continues to grow while the demand for other fields is stagnant, relying on people leaving the workforce to create new openings. That means you weren't around for the dot-com bust in 2001 or so. Yes, things are good right now but the situation can go south very suddenly and with very little warning and stay bad for several years.
- douche 10y ago
  Yes. Myself, my sister, her boyfriend, and my girlfriend. Granted, we're smart folks, who could finish a bachelors in four years, and got degrees in subjects that lead to well-paying careers. We also chose to live in a part of the country that isn't stupid expensive. If you're a first-time home owner, you can get an FHA mortgage, which has a low down payment and low interest rates. Real estate inflation is a problem, but if you live outside of the ridiculous areas, that million dollar house is only 100k-250k. Which is entirely feasible on an engineer or developer salary in those same areas. I don't make half of what I could make in SV or NY, in gross terms, but for where I am, I'm very comfortable.
  - gluggymug 10y ago
    How long have you had your current job? Median tenure is falling I believe. And employees in their mid-twenties and thirties have way lower tenure than those in their fifties. I think it's about 3 years as opposed to 10 years. Job-hunting is much more prevalent.
    - douche 10y ago
      Five and a half years, actually, and no plans on going anywhere. Working for a small, stable, lifestyle business does have some perks.
- phs318u 10y ago
  Where I live, our family home is currently worth about 7x the price of the cheapest one bed apartment in the same area. I expect to be able to help them out to the tune of 80% to 100% of the cheapest one bed apartment. If they want to borrow a bit more to get something nicer and they're able to do so then good for them. But that's their choice. With respect to jobs, I totally agree that the definition of "stable" has changed from my parents' era to my children's. And we are lucky we don't live in the US. Our social services, while not what they were, are still ahead of your. But if you can start life without a huge debt, then that is the best way we can help them, and in those circumstances "stability" can be defined more flexibly.
iphonethrowaway 10y ago
And accumulate crippling debt in order to live life according to the prosperous fantasy that you happen to grow up in? Japan is about 20 years ahead of current US/EU monetary policy. This is coming to America and it's not an accident and it's not people getting lazy and stupid. Things have gotten more expensive, more unequal and more competitive. And at least Japan has strong safety nets, America doesn't.
- stock_toaster 10y ago
  One major differnce is that, from what I understand, land/housing in Japan has historically been generationally owned (very long mortgages, such as 100 years, paid off after multiple generations). That is generally quite rare in the US (not sure about EU).
- phs318u 10y ago
  Why are you assuming my kids will have crippling debt? What if they are happy to start off life in a simple one bed apartment of which our contribution will be roughly 80% of the cost? My parents started their life together in a small flat and ended up in a 3 bed home which growing up we thought was huge. My girls' expectations are not unrealistic. They don't expect to move out of the family home and into a huge home with a pool. I never said people were lazy or stupid nor did I imply it. However to claim as some are, that people don't have choices in life is just plain wrong. You might not like the choices you have available but you've got them. And you're free to choose your path from among them. Don't get me wrong and conflate what I'm saying with some kind political ideology. All I'm saying is that people are faced with personal choices and need to own their choices and the consequences of their choices.
  - falcolas 10y ago
    > Why are you assuming my kids will have crippling debt? Not the OP, but do they expect to go to college? Do you plan to cover their college costs? If the answers are yes and no, they will come away with anywhere from $20,000 to $200,000 in student loan debts. I'm not sure how it could be more crippling... You may have set the expectation that they will go out and live on their own, but were one of them to come to the point of becoming homeless (whatever the cause), would you let that happen to them? If one developed a crippling disease which didn't let them work a full time job, but also didn't kill them outright, what would you do then? Intentions are great, but reality tends to kick intentions to the curb.
rustynails 10y ago
I've researched Japan's situation quite carefully as I believe there are lessons the west can learn from what's happened in Japan. Your attitude is dismissive and arrogant and shows a complete lack of empathy and understanding. If you had read about Japan, you would know of a country that has had decades of stagflation. You will know of a country that places extremely high expectations on their young. Instead, you throw rocks. The article quotes 4.5 million people who have lost hope and you dismiss them all as lazy parasites. 4.5 million and they're all lazy? There's nothing else at play because you have 2 daughters? May I suggest that you consider researching before commenting next time? There are many articles (unlike this one) that are not judgemental, that are informative and help those that wish to understand.
fjdlwlv 10y ago
What possible benefit is there to sell a property just to buy another? That just burns transaction costs, and forcing people to live alone harm's mental health and is economically inefficient. Your Plan is built on prejudice not logic.
- phs318u 10y ago
  My house is worth 7x. If I sell to by a 2 bed bungalow for 3x, I can give my kids 1x each for a 1 bed apartment. Buy a 1 bed apartment to rent out and still have some travelling money. I'm in my 50s and expect to enact the plan before I'm 60. At that point, my wife and I don't need to be rattling around in a huge home. By moving into something smaller we can help our kids in what we believe is the best way possible - by avoiding starting life with a huge debt. I don't want them to be wage slaves for the rest of their lives. Also, I have no idea what you mean by my idea being based on prejudice. Prejudice against what, who?
closeparen 10y ago
It may be true that, with more effort, a specific unemployed and unmatched person could beat the other candidates for a good job, or the other suitors for a romantic partner. But that doesn't mean that the population of unemployed and unmatched people can shrink. Only that it can churn.
heynowletsgo 10y ago
You are the problem, not the solution.

by phs318u 10y ago

sandworm101 10y ago

>>> ... they will be moving out once they're in stable employment. Have you met any 20-somethings in stable employment? Unless your daughters are supermodels or have PHDs in biotech they are in for at least a decade of contract work and constant job-hunting. Even those at their dream jobs know they stand on the knife's edge. And the property ladder, the average home price in my area is over 500k and closer to 1m if you want to be in driving distance of any "stable" job. Even with the 20% down payment only top earners even qualify for a loan. I hope you are ready to co-sign their mortgages.

sanderjd 10y ago
Where do you live? I know 20-somethings with stable jobs. Housing is expensive, but with good credit, it isn't hard to get a pretty big mortgage, even with much less than 20% down. I'm usually sympathetic to this sort of argument - I do think it's quite a bit harder for young people to get started than it was in the fairly recent past, but your comment seems hyperbolic.
- sandworm101 10y ago
  Canada - Average house price in the country just hit 550k, and that includes all the stuff in the VAST country. Within the cities, the only places for young people to find jobs, prices are closer to 1mil. http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/crea-march-figures-1.4073540 http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/crea-march-figures-1.4073540 For a 400k loan, with 100k down, a Canadian bank will want to see an income of at least 80k/year before taxes. That number (80k) puts one in the top 10% of earners. So to buy the average house (500k) one must be in the top 10% of earners. To buy the average house in a city you better earn closer to 180k, putting you well into the top 1% of earners. So for the vast majority of young people home ownership isn't a reasonable option even in the long term. Anyone can play around with the numbers here: https://tools.td.com/mortgage-affordability-calculator/ https://tools.td.com/mortgage-affordability-calculator/ The example I always return to is the military. An officer in a nation's military should be able to buy a house and have a family in a degree of comfort. That was my grandfather. Today, officers rent apartments in full knowledge that home ownership will never happen so long as they remain officers. An RCAF pilot, an elite officer in any military, earns between 75 and 100k. With a young family and perhaps a student loan, that fighter pilot won't ever own a house. It is worse for naval officers, who generally need to live near cities/ports.
  - e15ctr0n 10y ago
    As many as 78% of adults in the Toronto area are still living with their parents, a trend "driven more by high house prices and an increasingly unstable job market for young adults". Toronto’s Housing Boom Refills Empty Nests, Driving Prices Even Higher | March 12, 2017 https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/12/world/canada/torontos-housing-boom-refills-empty-nests-driving-prices-even-higher.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/12/world/canada/torontos-hou...
eximius 10y ago
I am a 20 something who was hired for a salaried position shortly after graduation with a bachelors degree in math. I bought a house less than a year later (granted, with an FHA loan and less than the traditional 20% down). Most of my friends in a major field of engineering or computer science are just fine as well (IT-degrees and almost comp sci degrees don't fair as well). The world is not as dismal as it may seem for millenials. It's just that demand for STEM +CS continues to grow while the demand for other fields is stagnant, relying on people leaving the workforce to create new openings.
- iphonethrowaway 10y ago
  Just curious, did you have a stable upbringing, two parents and did you and your friends belong to the middle class?
  - eximius 10y ago
    Yes. Not sure what precisely defines middle class, we might have been at the upper end of it. Private schools, we lived overseas for a while.
- closeparen 10y ago
  We're getting paid high dollar amounts while Silicon Valley is in boom, but the fact that they're contingent on appearing daily in Bay Area offices means the long-term stability of home ownership is off the table for us. And with booms come busts: many of us work for companies that hemorrhage investor cash. Even if your present employer is stable, it seems likely that tens of thousands of us will be competing with you for your next job, and bidding down its wages. In making high-dollar salaries, we're doing better than most, but don't confuse $150k Senior Engineer positions for 25-year-olds at 5-year-old companies with long-term stability.
- RandomOpinion 10y ago
  > I am a 20 something who was hired for a salaried position shortly after graduation with a bachelors degree in math. ... The world is not as dismal as it may seem for millenials. It's just that demand for STEM + CS continues to grow while the demand for other fields is stagnant, relying on people leaving the workforce to create new openings. That means you weren't around for the dot-com bust in 2001 or so. Yes, things are good right now but the situation can go south very suddenly and with very little warning and stay bad for several years.
douche 10y ago
Yes. Myself, my sister, her boyfriend, and my girlfriend. Granted, we're smart folks, who could finish a bachelors in four years, and got degrees in subjects that lead to well-paying careers. We also chose to live in a part of the country that isn't stupid expensive. If you're a first-time home owner, you can get an FHA mortgage, which has a low down payment and low interest rates. Real estate inflation is a problem, but if you live outside of the ridiculous areas, that million dollar house is only 100k-250k. Which is entirely feasible on an engineer or developer salary in those same areas. I don't make half of what I could make in SV or NY, in gross terms, but for where I am, I'm very comfortable.
- gluggymug 10y ago
  How long have you had your current job? Median tenure is falling I believe. And employees in their mid-twenties and thirties have way lower tenure than those in their fifties. I think it's about 3 years as opposed to 10 years. Job-hunting is much more prevalent.
  - douche 10y ago
    Five and a half years, actually, and no plans on going anywhere. Working for a small, stable, lifestyle business does have some perks.
phs318u 10y ago
Where I live, our family home is currently worth about 7x the price of the cheapest one bed apartment in the same area. I expect to be able to help them out to the tune of 80% to 100% of the cheapest one bed apartment. If they want to borrow a bit more to get something nicer and they're able to do so then good for them. But that's their choice. With respect to jobs, I totally agree that the definition of "stable" has changed from my parents' era to my children's. And we are lucky we don't live in the US. Our social services, while not what they were, are still ahead of your. But if you can start life without a huge debt, then that is the best way we can help them, and in those circumstances "stability" can be defined more flexibly.

iphonethrowaway 10y ago

And accumulate crippling debt in order to live life according to the prosperous fantasy that you happen to grow up in? Japan is about 20 years ahead of current US/EU monetary policy. This is coming to America and it's not an accident and it's not people getting lazy and stupid. Things have gotten more expensive, more unequal and more competitive. And at least Japan has strong safety nets, America doesn't.

stock_toaster 10y ago
One major differnce is that, from what I understand, land/housing in Japan has historically been generationally owned (very long mortgages, such as 100 years, paid off after multiple generations). That is generally quite rare in the US (not sure about EU).
phs318u 10y ago
Why are you assuming my kids will have crippling debt? What if they are happy to start off life in a simple one bed apartment of which our contribution will be roughly 80% of the cost? My parents started their life together in a small flat and ended up in a 3 bed home which growing up we thought was huge. My girls' expectations are not unrealistic. They don't expect to move out of the family home and into a huge home with a pool. I never said people were lazy or stupid nor did I imply it. However to claim as some are, that people don't have choices in life is just plain wrong. You might not like the choices you have available but you've got them. And you're free to choose your path from among them. Don't get me wrong and conflate what I'm saying with some kind political ideology. All I'm saying is that people are faced with personal choices and need to own their choices and the consequences of their choices.
- falcolas 10y ago
  > Why are you assuming my kids will have crippling debt? Not the OP, but do they expect to go to college? Do you plan to cover their college costs? If the answers are yes and no, they will come away with anywhere from $20,000 to $200,000 in student loan debts. I'm not sure how it could be more crippling... You may have set the expectation that they will go out and live on their own, but were one of them to come to the point of becoming homeless (whatever the cause), would you let that happen to them? If one developed a crippling disease which didn't let them work a full time job, but also didn't kill them outright, what would you do then? Intentions are great, but reality tends to kick intentions to the curb.

rustynails 10y ago

I've researched Japan's situation quite carefully as I believe there are lessons the west can learn from what's happened in Japan. Your attitude is dismissive and arrogant and shows a complete lack of empathy and understanding. If you had read about Japan, you would know of a country that has had decades of stagflation. You will know of a country that places extremely high expectations on their young. Instead, you throw rocks. The article quotes 4.5 million people who have lost hope and you dismiss them all as lazy parasites. 4.5 million and they're all lazy? There's nothing else at play because you have 2 daughters? May I suggest that you consider researching before commenting next time? There are many articles (unlike this one) that are not judgemental, that are informative and help those that wish to understand.

fjdlwlv 10y ago

What possible benefit is there to sell a property just to buy another? That just burns transaction costs, and forcing people to live alone harm's mental health and is economically inefficient. Your Plan is built on prejudice not logic.

phs318u 10y ago
My house is worth 7x. If I sell to by a 2 bed bungalow for 3x, I can give my kids 1x each for a 1 bed apartment. Buy a 1 bed apartment to rent out and still have some travelling money. I'm in my 50s and expect to enact the plan before I'm 60. At that point, my wife and I don't need to be rattling around in a huge home. By moving into something smaller we can help our kids in what we believe is the best way possible - by avoiding starting life with a huge debt. I don't want them to be wage slaves for the rest of their lives. Also, I have no idea what you mean by my idea being based on prejudice. Prejudice against what, who?

closeparen 10y ago

It may be true that, with more effort, a specific unemployed and unmatched person could beat the other candidates for a good job, or the other suitors for a romantic partner. But that doesn't mean that the population of unemployed and unmatched people can shrink. Only that it can churn.

heynowletsgo 10y ago

You are the problem, not the solution.