6 ms·

> doing full stack web Is there really an abundance of really qualified full stack web developers? I met a lot of incompetent US citizens claiming to be full s

by vecinu 10y ago

> doing full stack web Is there really an abundance of really qualified full stack web developers? I met a lot of incompetent US citizens claiming to be full stack devs.

flukus 10y ago
What's your definition of full stack? Anyone that knows a back end language, sql, html and a bit of css and javascript is a full stack web developer.
- Rumudiez 10y ago
  The going expectation for professional résumés is about honesty and modesty. What you say on that piece of paper should reflect what you would be able to come in the next day and be productive doing. I interviewed over 15 applicants for just front end development last week and not a single one of all the 6-page résumés from candidates who all apparently have their masters was honest: only 5 even knew what JSON is.
  - flukus 10y ago
    Are these graduates? Are they real developers or people that know html, css and photoshop thinking their front end devs? Have they spent their lives in big companies that are still in xml land? That's all the excuses I can think of. Some of them may be honest, just ignorant.
    - Rumudiez 10y ago
      They generally don't have a clue, or sometimes have had job titles like "Software Engineer" but all they did was basic GUI testing, which is also the case at my company.
      - underdown 9y ago
        Is it possible you aren't offering a wage that attracts talent? You seem to be implying that Indian labor is smarter/more qualified than US labor. In my experience, (hiring in Phoenix) that is simply not the case if you're willing to pay the prevailing wage.
        CM30 9y ago
        Yeah, this was my first though too. Even outside of the US you see companies wondering why they can't find good local talent, except they're offering wages too low for any qualified applicant to live on. Pay peanuts, you get monkeys (or the extremely desperate/exploited).
        Rumudiez 9y ago
        I believe that might be part of the problem, but when I joined under this same role I was being fairly compensated, so it might be mixed.
  - weirdstuff 10y ago
    I hear these stories all the time, and yet the value of these degrees seem to hold steady, while experience is often discounted.
  - walshemj 9y ago
    I would have thought JSON was more a back end
    - flamedoge 9y ago
      one of those things .... most people in the pipeline should know.... since it's a data container format.
    - Rumudiez 9y ago
      That's "JavaScript Object Notation," as in, how to use objects in JS.
- burfog 10y ago
  I think you need to be able to debug a crash of the web server or kernel. This means C and at least a bit of a clue about assembly. I suppose it's OK to not be able to debug a hypervisor. On the other side of things, probably you also ought to be a competent artist and writer.
  - tonyedgecombe 10y ago
    "a crash of the web server or kernel" That rules out 99% of people who are successfully doing the work right now.
    - burfog 10y ago
      It rules out 99% of the people successfully doing something which they claim to be "full stack". They might be great at their jobs, but I don't consider them "full stack". Low-level stuff is always part of the stack. I guess there has been a sort of grade inflation on "full stack". When I go looking in the "Who wants to be hired?" threads for people, my reaction to seeing "full stack" is that the person is almost certainly exaggerating to an extreme. Real "full stack" is super uncommon, but it sounds impressive I guess. It's just not very believable.
      - flukus 10y ago
        I think you're missing the "web developer" part of the full stack. It means you know all tmthe stack required for web development. Either way, aren't debugging crashes with c/ASM still taught at uni? Or is the idea of using gdb too much these days?
  - user5994461 9y ago
    Crash of the web server => read the log and find where you made a typo in the config file crash of the kernel => google the last error lines (hope you have one)
notyourwork 9y ago
> I met a lot of incompetent US citizens claiming to be full stack devs. Does this imply that H1B employee's are guaranteed to be more competent? I don't think it does and also extrapolating your experience to conclude on an entire population of people is hardly justified.
- vecinu 9y ago
  Not at all, I know a number of folks on H-1Bs, L-1s and other visas that are barely able to do their jobs correctly. I was just sharing an anecdote.

by vecinu 10y ago

> doing full stack web Is there really an abundance of really qualified full stack web developers? I met a lot of incompetent US citizens claiming to be full stack devs.

flukus 10y ago

What's your definition of full stack? Anyone that knows a back end language, sql, html and a bit of css and javascript is a full stack web developer.

Rumudiez 10y ago
The going expectation for professional résumés is about honesty and modesty. What you say on that piece of paper should reflect what you would be able to come in the next day and be productive doing. I interviewed over 15 applicants for just front end development last week and not a single one of all the 6-page résumés from candidates who all apparently have their masters was honest: only 5 even knew what JSON is.
- flukus 10y ago
  Are these graduates? Are they real developers or people that know html, css and photoshop thinking their front end devs? Have they spent their lives in big companies that are still in xml land? That's all the excuses I can think of. Some of them may be honest, just ignorant.
  - Rumudiez 10y ago
    They generally don't have a clue, or sometimes have had job titles like "Software Engineer" but all they did was basic GUI testing, which is also the case at my company.
    - underdown 9y ago
      Is it possible you aren't offering a wage that attracts talent? You seem to be implying that Indian labor is smarter/more qualified than US labor. In my experience, (hiring in Phoenix) that is simply not the case if you're willing to pay the prevailing wage.
      - CM30 9y ago
        Yeah, this was my first though too. Even outside of the US you see companies wondering why they can't find good local talent, except they're offering wages too low for any qualified applicant to live on. Pay peanuts, you get monkeys (or the extremely desperate/exploited).
      - Rumudiez 9y ago
        I believe that might be part of the problem, but when I joined under this same role I was being fairly compensated, so it might be mixed.
- weirdstuff 10y ago
  I hear these stories all the time, and yet the value of these degrees seem to hold steady, while experience is often discounted.
- walshemj 9y ago
  I would have thought JSON was more a back end
  - flamedoge 9y ago
    one of those things .... most people in the pipeline should know.... since it's a data container format.
  - Rumudiez 9y ago
    That's "JavaScript Object Notation," as in, how to use objects in JS.
burfog 10y ago
I think you need to be able to debug a crash of the web server or kernel. This means C and at least a bit of a clue about assembly. I suppose it's OK to not be able to debug a hypervisor. On the other side of things, probably you also ought to be a competent artist and writer.
- tonyedgecombe 10y ago
  "a crash of the web server or kernel" That rules out 99% of people who are successfully doing the work right now.
  - burfog 10y ago
    It rules out 99% of the people successfully doing something which they claim to be "full stack". They might be great at their jobs, but I don't consider them "full stack". Low-level stuff is always part of the stack. I guess there has been a sort of grade inflation on "full stack". When I go looking in the "Who wants to be hired?" threads for people, my reaction to seeing "full stack" is that the person is almost certainly exaggerating to an extreme. Real "full stack" is super uncommon, but it sounds impressive I guess. It's just not very believable.
    - flukus 10y ago
      I think you're missing the "web developer" part of the full stack. It means you know all tmthe stack required for web development. Either way, aren't debugging crashes with c/ASM still taught at uni? Or is the idea of using gdb too much these days?
- user5994461 9y ago
  Crash of the web server => read the log and find where you made a typo in the config file crash of the kernel => google the last error lines (hope you have one)

notyourwork 9y ago

> I met a lot of incompetent US citizens claiming to be full stack devs. Does this imply that H1B employee's are guaranteed to be more competent? I don't think it does and also extrapolating your experience to conclude on an entire population of people is hardly justified.

vecinu 9y ago
Not at all, I know a number of folks on H-1Bs, L-1s and other visas that are barely able to do their jobs correctly. I was just sharing an anecdote.