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On these more controversial political threads: How are certain accounts instantaneously downvoted to dead on HN, within single-digit seconds? Seems automated bu

On these more controversial political threads: How are certain accounts instantaneously downvoted to dead on HN, within single-digit seconds? Seems automated but entirely too hard to tell. For example, l3m0ndr0p (yeah, I'm totally him/her) made an "America first" type of comment. I know that doesn't play well with a lot of HNers, but seeing it instantly downvoted to dead was weird, too. I know there's a left-ish bias here, I'm a bit left, but this feels different.

mikestew 9y ago
Some accounts are dead on arrival due to previous posts. Though in digging through the comments of the account you reference, I can't find anything egregious, so I vouched for the comment. Personally, I would like to see HN quit the juvenile, passive-aggressive shadow ban. If for no other reason than it seems it is buggy at times, and banning accounts that don't need it. But I don't make the rules.
- cryptarch 9y ago
  It's a security by obscurity thing, right? Let the spammers think they're being seen but ignored? I don't really feel an obligation to not speak about it though, I didn't choose to get showdead privileges and never heard anything about it.
  - red_hairing 9y ago
    spammers? or dissidents?
- weirdstuff 9y ago
  Interesting, didn't know that. Yeah, I'm not really invested in some of these less-than-popular sentiments, but it pains me to see against-the-grain comments consistently downvoted in some threads.
HillaryBriss 9y ago
> l3m0ndr0p (yeah, I'm totally him/her) made an "America first" type of comment. on the topic of "America First", i wonder if there's a double standard. if Apple/Facebook/Microsoft/Google/et al say "if we don't reform immigration policies to allow more talented people to enter the US, America will lose its position of technical leadership" that's basically an "America First" argument. but in reality these companies are basically motivated by their own desire to make more cash. and it's not very controversial. by contrast, if some individual middle class US resident says "H1B visa holders are costing me money by depressing salaries" that's basically an "America First" argument too, even though that person is basically motived by their own desire to make more cash. but it's quite controversial. is corporate greed somehow more acceptable than individual greed? is there a kind of bias against the little guy? why isn't everyone equally entitled to advocate for their own greed?
- weirdstuff 9y ago
  That line of thought crossed my mind, as well.
  - HillaryBriss 9y ago
    every person (us born, immigrant, or even outside the US), organization (foreign, domestic, corporation, non-profit, et al) is entitled to say "I am America". we might be the only country like that.
    - siquick 9y ago
      > we might be the only country like that. Why?
      - HillaryBriss 9y ago
        for one thing, the US has a high profile global presence. when the US government or economy does something, people all over the world tend to hear about it and often react. sometimes it effects them in powerful ways (e.g. war, trade, Beyonce). for another, the US seems to have evolved both the strongest individual free speech protections and some of the freest immigration policies and practices. because of its global familiarity, in the last 30 or 40 years, many people from around the world have come to the US and felt comfortable exercising that freedom. maybe people think "if the US feels free to reach out and impact my part of the world, then i'm free to go to the US and impact it." i don't know if there are other countries in a situation like that. maybe the UK? maybe China and India, if you consider the poor rural workers who've migrated into the big cities?
spangry 9y ago
Reading through l3m0ndr0p's comment history is quite a surreal experience. Almost every one of their posts is downvoted to grey, even the extremely uncontroversial and mundane ones. I can get how, with a comment history like that, whatever algos HN has running might automatically drop them to the bottom of the page since it would just run blindly on whatever metrics it sees. What I find harder to understand is how they ended up in that position in the first place. Their comments aren't exactly in lock-step with the general HN view of the world, but they're not that far out either. If anyone thinks I'm being OTT here, go and see for yourself. Diversity of opinion is a good thing. I'd hate to see HN turn into another mindless echo-chamber.
- shouldbworking 9y ago
  The account is likely shadowdead or some variant of it. A lot of places have a "silent ban" to stop unwanted trolls from continuing to make accounts. The "silent" part means the user is cajoled into believing they're not banned. One of the ways to do this is to not kill their comments until a couple people reply to them. That way the system can tell them they have +3 votes or whatever when in reality nobody after the first 2 minutes even sees their post. If nobody ever replied to them it would look suspicious. Not totally sure that's whats happening but it looks like it
  - spangry 9y ago
    Fair enough. Sounds like, in all probability, it's just an 'overly twitchy' algorithm somewhere; no system is perfect I guess.

mikestew 9y ago

Some accounts are dead on arrival due to previous posts. Though in digging through the comments of the account you reference, I can't find anything egregious, so I vouched for the comment. Personally, I would like to see HN quit the juvenile, passive-aggressive shadow ban. If for no other reason than it seems it is buggy at times, and banning accounts that don't need it. But I don't make the rules.

cryptarch 9y ago
It's a security by obscurity thing, right? Let the spammers think they're being seen but ignored? I don't really feel an obligation to not speak about it though, I didn't choose to get showdead privileges and never heard anything about it.
- red_hairing 9y ago
  spammers? or dissidents?
weirdstuff 9y ago
Interesting, didn't know that. Yeah, I'm not really invested in some of these less-than-popular sentiments, but it pains me to see against-the-grain comments consistently downvoted in some threads.

HillaryBriss 9y ago

> l3m0ndr0p (yeah, I'm totally him/her) made an "America first" type of comment. on the topic of "America First", i wonder if there's a double standard. if Apple/Facebook/Microsoft/Google/et al say "if we don't reform immigration policies to allow more talented people to enter the US, America will lose its position of technical leadership" that's basically an "America First" argument. but in reality these companies are basically motivated by their own desire to make more cash. and it's not very controversial. by contrast, if some individual middle class US resident says "H1B visa holders are costing me money by depressing salaries" that's basically an "America First" argument too, even though that person is basically motived by their own desire to make more cash. but it's quite controversial. is corporate greed somehow more acceptable than individual greed? is there a kind of bias against the little guy? why isn't everyone equally entitled to advocate for their own greed?

weirdstuff 9y ago
That line of thought crossed my mind, as well.
- HillaryBriss 9y ago
  every person (us born, immigrant, or even outside the US), organization (foreign, domestic, corporation, non-profit, et al) is entitled to say "I am America". we might be the only country like that.
  - siquick 9y ago
    > we might be the only country like that. Why?
    - HillaryBriss 9y ago
      for one thing, the US has a high profile global presence. when the US government or economy does something, people all over the world tend to hear about it and often react. sometimes it effects them in powerful ways (e.g. war, trade, Beyonce). for another, the US seems to have evolved both the strongest individual free speech protections and some of the freest immigration policies and practices. because of its global familiarity, in the last 30 or 40 years, many people from around the world have come to the US and felt comfortable exercising that freedom. maybe people think "if the US feels free to reach out and impact my part of the world, then i'm free to go to the US and impact it." i don't know if there are other countries in a situation like that. maybe the UK? maybe China and India, if you consider the poor rural workers who've migrated into the big cities?

spangry 9y ago

Reading through l3m0ndr0p's comment history is quite a surreal experience. Almost every one of their posts is downvoted to grey, even the extremely uncontroversial and mundane ones. I can get how, with a comment history like that, whatever algos HN has running might automatically drop them to the bottom of the page since it would just run blindly on whatever metrics it sees. What I find harder to understand is how they ended up in that position in the first place. Their comments aren't exactly in lock-step with the general HN view of the world, but they're not that far out either. If anyone thinks I'm being OTT here, go and see for yourself. Diversity of opinion is a good thing. I'd hate to see HN turn into another mindless echo-chamber.

shouldbworking 9y ago
The account is likely shadowdead or some variant of it. A lot of places have a "silent ban" to stop unwanted trolls from continuing to make accounts. The "silent" part means the user is cajoled into believing they're not banned. One of the ways to do this is to not kill their comments until a couple people reply to them. That way the system can tell them they have +3 votes or whatever when in reality nobody after the first 2 minutes even sees their post. If nobody ever replied to them it would look suspicious. Not totally sure that's whats happening but it looks like it
- spangry 9y ago
  Fair enough. Sounds like, in all probability, it's just an 'overly twitchy' algorithm somewhere; no system is perfect I guess.