5 ms·

Democracy is about more than one party winning a popular vote.

by blowski 10y ago

TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
This is the last chance the UK has to avoid fascism. I wish that was hyperbole. But I really don't think it is.
- NetStrikeForce 10y ago
  I hear you. You even see people openly embracing Enoch Powell's ideas again. Brexit and Trump removed the taboo on fascism and those long time closeted fascists are now very openly pushing their propaganda. The rest of us are too busy defending their right to destroy our society and our values.
  - sir_throwaway 10y ago
    As a Tory and a Brexit voter, let me reassure you that I (and my Brexit voting friends) are not closeted fascists. The idea is quite offensive, actually. :)
    - urbanj 10y ago
      Sorry that it hurts, but you are, really.
    - ceejayoz 10y ago
      As a student of history, let me point out that the point of being a "closeted fascist" is to not admit one's fascist tendencies in public.
    - NetStrikeForce 10y ago
      I'm not sure if my English is good enough, but that's not what I said. I said that Brexit and Trump removed the taboo about fascism and fascists are raising their voices. Why would you think I called Brexit, Tories or Trump voters fascists? It would be over-simplifying demographics and politics.
    - NetStrikeForce 10y ago
      Second reply to the same comment, because I was curious as to why would you create a throwaway for this debate... And turns out your other comments are 2 oversimplifying The Guarding and The Independent editorial line / quality and the other two are misleading or a straight lie. That makes me wonder if you really misunderstood my comment here or are you stirring the pot on purpose? That would explain the need to create a throwaway.
  - ue_ 10y ago
    >The rest of us are too busy defending their right to destroy our society and our values. Which values are those? Unfortunately, I would argue that England has never had values I'd agree with. What about values of privacy and civil liberties? You can't even have certain drawings (yes, even their possession is illegal) and ISP have to keep your Internet usage for a year. Bourgeois democracy cannot protect the values of the people.
    - NetStrikeForce 10y ago
      Privacy, freedom, protection from the tyranny of the majority, equality, fraternity, respect for minorities, socialised and universal healthcare, feminism, ecologism (firefox says this is not a word?)... Those are the ones I care about and I think are at danger.
      - ue_ 10y ago
        Democracy is "tyranny of the majority" no matter which way you look at it (I'm still in favour of it though). And I think equality, fraternity, respect for minorities, socialised and universal healthcare, feminism and focus on ecology would be much better served without capitalism. Why didn't you include the right to privacy and freedom of expression too?
        NetStrikeForce 10y ago
        Democracy is not the tyranny of the majority. Direct democracy might be, but that's a very narrow view of democracy. > Why didn't you include the right to privacy and freedom of expression too? Privacy is literally the first one on my list :) Freedom of speech (freedom of expression seems a literal translation from Spanish "libertad de expresión" which is "freedom of speech") I agree. I just forgot about it :) I could add others like separation of powers that I also forgot (and they're under attack if you follow UK politics).
- sir_throwaway 10y ago
  This is literally the most hyperbolic thing I've read in a while. Are you a writer for The Independent by any chance? (Seriously, you're saying that this will be the last ever democratic election in the UK?)
  - nthcolumn 10y ago
    We've already had it! Any democracy without a free vote is a sham. Democracies have free speech, and their citizens ought to have a free conscience and privacy is a cornerstone of that - or do you wish to find out what we have to hide (plenty), make windows into all our souls and still want to know what we really, really think? Certainly democracies do not depend on nudge politics, dog-whistle tactics or the thought police, allow people to associate freely and not have to submit to arbitrary detention and interrogation and most often of all have a Law which is the same for everyone regardless of status and those who make the Law make it and those who rule on the Law do not fear for their lives! Democracies rarely have chiefs of police warning about police states. Perhaps you are unawares of your party's late-night retro-active legislation making what was once illegal legal. What sort of democracy is that? One more redolent of Pyongyang than Putney. Brexit is a nasty little englanders' nationalist working class pipe dream on something that will never be again. If you don't want to be offended by being called a fascist don't support a fascist party and hold fascist views actually.
    - davzie 10y ago
      You're being a bit of a bellend. We can hold conservative views and not be fascist, the same as you can hold relatively left-wing views and not want socialism. Life isn't black-and-white, you know that I'm sure and labelling doesn't help anything.
      - midgetjones 10y ago
        > labelling doesn't help anything > You're being a bit of a bellend
      - nthcolumn 10y ago
- tomp 10y ago
  Leaving the EU is fascism? Can you substantiate that?
  - barrkel 10y ago
    Nationalism is the road to war in Europe, and always has been. It's not fascism I fear, but nationalism.
- vixen99 10y ago
  No, you were right first time. It is. Of course if you'd like to defend your comment with a supported argument that might be more interesting. First off you might define what you mean by fascism. On the other hand, this is not what HN is about.

Democracy is about more than one party winning a popular vote.

by blowski 10y ago

Democracy is about more than one party winning a popular vote.

TheOtherHobbes 10y ago

This is the last chance the UK has to avoid fascism. I wish that was hyperbole. But I really don't think it is.

NetStrikeForce 10y ago
I hear you. You even see people openly embracing Enoch Powell's ideas again. Brexit and Trump removed the taboo on fascism and those long time closeted fascists are now very openly pushing their propaganda. The rest of us are too busy defending their right to destroy our society and our values.
- sir_throwaway 10y ago
  As a Tory and a Brexit voter, let me reassure you that I (and my Brexit voting friends) are not closeted fascists. The idea is quite offensive, actually. :)
  - urbanj 10y ago
    Sorry that it hurts, but you are, really.
  - ceejayoz 10y ago
    As a student of history, let me point out that the point of being a "closeted fascist" is to not admit one's fascist tendencies in public.
  - NetStrikeForce 10y ago
    I'm not sure if my English is good enough, but that's not what I said. I said that Brexit and Trump removed the taboo about fascism and fascists are raising their voices. Why would you think I called Brexit, Tories or Trump voters fascists? It would be over-simplifying demographics and politics.
  - NetStrikeForce 10y ago
    Second reply to the same comment, because I was curious as to why would you create a throwaway for this debate... And turns out your other comments are 2 oversimplifying The Guarding and The Independent editorial line / quality and the other two are misleading or a straight lie. That makes me wonder if you really misunderstood my comment here or are you stirring the pot on purpose? That would explain the need to create a throwaway.
- ue_ 10y ago
  >The rest of us are too busy defending their right to destroy our society and our values. Which values are those? Unfortunately, I would argue that England has never had values I'd agree with. What about values of privacy and civil liberties? You can't even have certain drawings (yes, even their possession is illegal) and ISP have to keep your Internet usage for a year. Bourgeois democracy cannot protect the values of the people.
  - NetStrikeForce 10y ago
    Privacy, freedom, protection from the tyranny of the majority, equality, fraternity, respect for minorities, socialised and universal healthcare, feminism, ecologism (firefox says this is not a word?)... Those are the ones I care about and I think are at danger.
    - ue_ 10y ago
      Democracy is "tyranny of the majority" no matter which way you look at it (I'm still in favour of it though). And I think equality, fraternity, respect for minorities, socialised and universal healthcare, feminism and focus on ecology would be much better served without capitalism. Why didn't you include the right to privacy and freedom of expression too?
      - NetStrikeForce 10y ago
        Democracy is not the tyranny of the majority. Direct democracy might be, but that's a very narrow view of democracy. > Why didn't you include the right to privacy and freedom of expression too? Privacy is literally the first one on my list :) Freedom of speech (freedom of expression seems a literal translation from Spanish "libertad de expresión" which is "freedom of speech") I agree. I just forgot about it :) I could add others like separation of powers that I also forgot (and they're under attack if you follow UK politics).
sir_throwaway 10y ago
This is literally the most hyperbolic thing I've read in a while. Are you a writer for The Independent by any chance? (Seriously, you're saying that this will be the last ever democratic election in the UK?)
- nthcolumn 10y ago
  We've already had it! Any democracy without a free vote is a sham. Democracies have free speech, and their citizens ought to have a free conscience and privacy is a cornerstone of that - or do you wish to find out what we have to hide (plenty), make windows into all our souls and still want to know what we really, really think? Certainly democracies do not depend on nudge politics, dog-whistle tactics or the thought police, allow people to associate freely and not have to submit to arbitrary detention and interrogation and most often of all have a Law which is the same for everyone regardless of status and those who make the Law make it and those who rule on the Law do not fear for their lives! Democracies rarely have chiefs of police warning about police states. Perhaps you are unawares of your party's late-night retro-active legislation making what was once illegal legal. What sort of democracy is that? One more redolent of Pyongyang than Putney. Brexit is a nasty little englanders' nationalist working class pipe dream on something that will never be again. If you don't want to be offended by being called a fascist don't support a fascist party and hold fascist views actually.
  - davzie 10y ago
    You're being a bit of a bellend. We can hold conservative views and not be fascist, the same as you can hold relatively left-wing views and not want socialism. Life isn't black-and-white, you know that I'm sure and labelling doesn't help anything.
    - midgetjones 10y ago
      > labelling doesn't help anything > You're being a bit of a bellend
    - nthcolumn 10y ago
tomp 10y ago
Leaving the EU is fascism? Can you substantiate that?
- barrkel 10y ago
  Nationalism is the road to war in Europe, and always has been. It's not fascism I fear, but nationalism.
vixen99 10y ago
No, you were right first time. It is. Of course if you'd like to defend your comment with a supported argument that might be more interesting. First off you might define what you mean by fascism. On the other hand, this is not what HN is about.