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The web is setup like a so-called plaza so obviously any time spent in a warren on the web is also in the plaza of the web. >That's not to say plazas don't hav

The web is setup like a so-called plaza so obviously any time spent in a warren on the web is also in the plaza of the web. >That's not to say plazas don't have their place. It's just that right now we prefer to spend most of our time in the comparative safety of the warren. Reddit (plaza) is 7 on alexa. Well below Facebook's 3rd place ranking, but high enough that I don't think we can say anything meaningful about the warren/plaza distinction outside the simple fact that facebook has implemented user engagement extremely well. Twitter (plaza) is 10th. http://www.alexa.com/topsites http://www.alexa.com/topsites But note the average time on the site. Reddit outranks Facebook. So I'm not sure that each individual could be said to be spending most of their time in a warren. Of course I think all this doesn't include hits from mobile apps which is probably the majority of the time for all of these sites so you can probably ignore this whole post.

beaconstudios 10y ago
reddit is most definitely not a plaza. It's a large website with lots of warrens, each of which is its own echo-chamber.
- andrewflnr 10y ago
  Reddit most definitely has aspects of both. Some subreddits are niche/echo chambers, but for example the main front page subs have a lot of overlap and fair amount of cross-talk, creating a distinctly plaza-like atmosphere. Heck, a single big public sub probably qualifies as a plaza.
- fnord123 10y ago
  You don't need permission to join almost any subreddit. You can see anything you want to see. So it's a plaza.
  - beaconstudios 10y ago
    but at the same time, subreddits are generally pretty insular. Reddit isn't a flat bazaar like twitter, it's a series of cathedrals. There are a few subreddits (generally the defaults) that are more bazaar-like but they are the exception rather than the rule, and are still constrained by a subject and strict rules.
    - fnord123 10y ago
      >Reddit isn't a flat bazaar like twitter, it's a series of cathedrals. You're mixing metaphors. This discussion is using plaza/warren as defined by GGP's linked block post: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2010/10/27/warrens-plazas-and-the-edge-of-legibility/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2010/10/27/warrens-plazas-and-the... "A warren is a social environment where no participant can see beyond their little corner of a larger maze... A plaza is an environment where you can easily get to a global/big picture view of the whole thing. " You cannot see any content you would like on facebook; hence it is a warren. You can look at almost any subreddit on Reddit, hence it is a plaza. By the blog post's definition. Cathedral/bazaar is ESR's metaphor for [F]OSS software development happening either behind closed doors or in the open.
      - beaconstudios 10y ago
        I'm well aware of that - I was referencing the open/closed concept behind the cathedral/bazaar dichotomy to point to the closed nature of most subreddits - the "warren/plaza" metaphor is pretty crap. Sure, they may be publicly visible, but they're closed in the sense of being a social in-group with norms that require acclimatisation. They're like old-school programmer forums - if you just jump in as a non-member and try to engage you may well be told to GTFO or lurk more.
        fnord123 10y ago
        I agree that the distinction between warren and plaza is crap. That's basically my point above: there's not much to say about the distinction seeing as FB and Reddit are both extremely popular and users on Reddit apparently spend more time per day than FB users. So I think we agree on the conclusion, we're just disagreeing on how we get there. >They're like old-school programmer forums - if you just jump in as a non-member and try to engage you may well be told to GTFO or lurk more. That's not my experience on any subreddit so I can't agree on this part. But maybe I'm in an echo chamber so I no longer see the distinction. Do you have any tips to see if I'm in an echo chamber? Or does this just involve intentionally crossing norm boundaries and how is it distinct from trolling? /semi-rhetorical

beaconstudios 10y ago

reddit is most definitely not a plaza. It's a large website with lots of warrens, each of which is its own echo-chamber.

andrewflnr 10y ago
Reddit most definitely has aspects of both. Some subreddits are niche/echo chambers, but for example the main front page subs have a lot of overlap and fair amount of cross-talk, creating a distinctly plaza-like atmosphere. Heck, a single big public sub probably qualifies as a plaza.
fnord123 10y ago
You don't need permission to join almost any subreddit. You can see anything you want to see. So it's a plaza.
- beaconstudios 10y ago
  but at the same time, subreddits are generally pretty insular. Reddit isn't a flat bazaar like twitter, it's a series of cathedrals. There are a few subreddits (generally the defaults) that are more bazaar-like but they are the exception rather than the rule, and are still constrained by a subject and strict rules.
  - fnord123 10y ago
    >Reddit isn't a flat bazaar like twitter, it's a series of cathedrals. You're mixing metaphors. This discussion is using plaza/warren as defined by GGP's linked block post: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2010/10/27/warrens-plazas-and-the-edge-of-legibility/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2010/10/27/warrens-plazas-and-the... "A warren is a social environment where no participant can see beyond their little corner of a larger maze... A plaza is an environment where you can easily get to a global/big picture view of the whole thing. " You cannot see any content you would like on facebook; hence it is a warren. You can look at almost any subreddit on Reddit, hence it is a plaza. By the blog post's definition. Cathedral/bazaar is ESR's metaphor for [F]OSS software development happening either behind closed doors or in the open.
    - beaconstudios 10y ago
      I'm well aware of that - I was referencing the open/closed concept behind the cathedral/bazaar dichotomy to point to the closed nature of most subreddits - the "warren/plaza" metaphor is pretty crap. Sure, they may be publicly visible, but they're closed in the sense of being a social in-group with norms that require acclimatisation. They're like old-school programmer forums - if you just jump in as a non-member and try to engage you may well be told to GTFO or lurk more.
      - fnord123 10y ago
        I agree that the distinction between warren and plaza is crap. That's basically my point above: there's not much to say about the distinction seeing as FB and Reddit are both extremely popular and users on Reddit apparently spend more time per day than FB users. So I think we agree on the conclusion, we're just disagreeing on how we get there. >They're like old-school programmer forums - if you just jump in as a non-member and try to engage you may well be told to GTFO or lurk more. That's not my experience on any subreddit so I can't agree on this part. But maybe I'm in an echo chamber so I no longer see the distinction. Do you have any tips to see if I'm in an echo chamber? Or does this just involve intentionally crossing norm boundaries and how is it distinct from trolling? /semi-rhetorical