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Looking at this list, the professions that Turnbull wants to remove is incredibly broad. As a Canadian in the US, I'm not 100% clear, but it seems like the 457

Looking at this list, the professions that Turnbull wants to remove is incredibly broad. As a Canadian in the US, I'm not 100% clear, but it seems like the 457 visa is a lot like the H1-B. With that comparison, it's really surprising to see professions like: * Chemical engineer * Petroleum engineer * Electronics engineer * Web developer on the list at the bottom. If someone announced they were taking these professions off the H1-B list in the US, I'm pretty sure there'd be a huge uproar. This is not even to mention that lots of these sound pretty important for Australia's resource economy. Can someone educate me on the situation from a more Australian point of view?

cynix 9y ago
A lot of "programmers/web developers" on this visa are scammers looking for a quick way to gain permanent residency (apparently it's a lot easier for a random person to claim they're a programmer than other professions that require actual skill). There's a whole industry of businesses providing "employment" to these people for a fee. I think the idea is to replace this visa with one that has more stringent skill/language requirements to weed out these scammers.
- joshka 9y ago
  It's easy to suggest this type of fraud and assume it's true based on merit. Do you have any proof of the above statements or is this speculation?
  - empressplay 9y ago
    I personally discovered a hair salon that was advertising for a "full time web developer" to manage their website (lol) with the plan to then use that (unfilled, obviously, given the extremely weak salary they were offering) position to bring in a "web developer" hairdresser on a 457. The system is seriously abused. EDIT: I guess the truth hurts?
    - ripuarian 9y ago
      No need for hair salon jobs in the future. We will automate that job away. It will not be possible to hire ANYBODY AT ALL for a hair salon. We are taking care of this. One more job destroyed = one more billion in my pocket.
    - viraptor 9y ago
      I'd like to hear how it actually went for them. Here's why I think the story, or a successful (fraudulent) outcome is unlikely: The visas cost quite a lot - in application costs, time to collect documents, cost of tests, etc. And I mean likely a full month or more of a hairdresser salary kind of cost. On top of that you'd need to provide a documentation of both a degree and relevant work experience for the last 10 years just to check if you qualify. Then you get the history and references checked, so that needs to pass as well. For the company organising such fraud, it would likely be a lot less hassle to take a local person and teach them 1-to-1, full time for a month. And considering you may end up sponsoring someone without skills to come and work for you essentially illegally - what's the point? Also for the person seeking that position: if you're found out, you'll likely never get a proper visa. That a big risk to take.
- moomin 9y ago
  Okay, how about petroleum engineer? Lot of hair dressing salons advertising for those?
- richev 9y ago
  I can't comment on the 457 requirements specifically, but I was granted a Skilled Independent visa (subclass 189) last year, as a "Developer Programmer". In lieu of a degree that would be considered at least a major in Computer Science I had to supply detailed references going back ten years. Certainly not easy.
- ripuarian 9y ago
  The real skill is the skill to destroy other people's jobs. The only ones who can do that, are programmers. All these "other professions" only stay alive by mercy of us not having enough time to destroy their job. This afternoon, I will finally have more time. Then, I will fire up my other laptop and destroy one more job. All of you will be replaced by my software, and you will be unemployed henceforth.
- kakarot 9y ago
  Whether intentional or not, you imply that programming does not involve an "actual" skillset and that is quite a bold claim to make on Hacker News.
empressplay 9y ago
"Web Developer" is often "code" for bringing in a worker whose job is really to do something else (typically menial.) Also, these roles are jobs that Australians can be trained to do and there's no reason to source them externally.
gluggymug 9y ago
A few years ago there was an exposé on 457 abuse in the IT industry on national tv.(http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2013/s3786315.htm http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2013/s3786315.htm) Hence the "TCS" jab from empressplay. A lot of IT contracts for major companies in Australia are outsourced to multinational IT companies. Those multinationals use a lot of 457 workers and get the big contracts via undercutting and paying low wages to poor migrants. Then various politicians have attacked the 457 scheme over the years. Most recently, one government backbencher from a regional mining area where unemployment is still very high threatened to quit over it. It's reputation has been shady for quite a while. It is always raised in a bad light by the media due to abuses. I do feel that this current move has unfairly affected legit skilled researchers like a_bonobo though. How they manage to be lumped in with 457s brought in by outsourcing companies makes zero sense.

cynix 9y ago

A lot of "programmers/web developers" on this visa are scammers looking for a quick way to gain permanent residency (apparently it's a lot easier for a random person to claim they're a programmer than other professions that require actual skill). There's a whole industry of businesses providing "employment" to these people for a fee. I think the idea is to replace this visa with one that has more stringent skill/language requirements to weed out these scammers.

joshka 9y ago
It's easy to suggest this type of fraud and assume it's true based on merit. Do you have any proof of the above statements or is this speculation?
- empressplay 9y ago
  I personally discovered a hair salon that was advertising for a "full time web developer" to manage their website (lol) with the plan to then use that (unfilled, obviously, given the extremely weak salary they were offering) position to bring in a "web developer" hairdresser on a 457. The system is seriously abused. EDIT: I guess the truth hurts?
  - ripuarian 9y ago
    No need for hair salon jobs in the future. We will automate that job away. It will not be possible to hire ANYBODY AT ALL for a hair salon. We are taking care of this. One more job destroyed = one more billion in my pocket.
  - viraptor 9y ago
    I'd like to hear how it actually went for them. Here's why I think the story, or a successful (fraudulent) outcome is unlikely: The visas cost quite a lot - in application costs, time to collect documents, cost of tests, etc. And I mean likely a full month or more of a hairdresser salary kind of cost. On top of that you'd need to provide a documentation of both a degree and relevant work experience for the last 10 years just to check if you qualify. Then you get the history and references checked, so that needs to pass as well. For the company organising such fraud, it would likely be a lot less hassle to take a local person and teach them 1-to-1, full time for a month. And considering you may end up sponsoring someone without skills to come and work for you essentially illegally - what's the point? Also for the person seeking that position: if you're found out, you'll likely never get a proper visa. That a big risk to take.
moomin 9y ago
Okay, how about petroleum engineer? Lot of hair dressing salons advertising for those?
richev 9y ago
I can't comment on the 457 requirements specifically, but I was granted a Skilled Independent visa (subclass 189) last year, as a "Developer Programmer". In lieu of a degree that would be considered at least a major in Computer Science I had to supply detailed references going back ten years. Certainly not easy.
ripuarian 9y ago
The real skill is the skill to destroy other people's jobs. The only ones who can do that, are programmers. All these "other professions" only stay alive by mercy of us not having enough time to destroy their job. This afternoon, I will finally have more time. Then, I will fire up my other laptop and destroy one more job. All of you will be replaced by my software, and you will be unemployed henceforth.
kakarot 9y ago
Whether intentional or not, you imply that programming does not involve an "actual" skillset and that is quite a bold claim to make on Hacker News.

empressplay 9y ago

"Web Developer" is often "code" for bringing in a worker whose job is really to do something else (typically menial.) Also, these roles are jobs that Australians can be trained to do and there's no reason to source them externally.

gluggymug 9y ago

A few years ago there was an exposé on 457 abuse in the IT industry on national tv.(http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2013/s3786315.htm http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2013/s3786315.htm) Hence the "TCS" jab from empressplay. A lot of IT contracts for major companies in Australia are outsourced to multinational IT companies. Those multinationals use a lot of 457 workers and get the big contracts via undercutting and paying low wages to poor migrants. Then various politicians have attacked the 457 scheme over the years. Most recently, one government backbencher from a regional mining area where unemployment is still very high threatened to quit over it. It's reputation has been shady for quite a while. It is always raised in a bad light by the media due to abuses. I do feel that this current move has unfairly affected legit skilled researchers like a_bonobo though. How they manage to be lumped in with 457s brought in by outsourcing companies makes zero sense.