6 ms·

“Australians First”: Australia abolishing 457 temporary skilled worker visa

61 points by empressplay 10y ago

a_bonobo 10y ago
This is extremely bad news for Australian science. I'm a postdoctoral researcher who's on a 457 visa out of my PhD. The new 457 replacement requires 3 years of work experience, so we cannot hire people from overseas who've just finished their PhDs. Without a permanent residency outcome we cannot keep these people after their initial contract (which is my own plan). They doubled the price but that's OK (for us!) since the university's reallocation funds pay for that. This is short-sighted pandering to the far-right who've been clamoring for this, and science loses.
- throwaway-decra 10y ago
  This is not necessarily a bad thing. I think most Australians would be aghast that 'foreign nationals' are taking the places of Australians on competitive fellowship grants like the ARC DECRA. Out of 200 fellowships 60 are given to foreign nationals, i.e., 30%. Personally, I think it is a bad idea to give this type of grant to a foreign national as the researcher will most likely leave Australia once the fellowship is finished as they have little to keep them in the country (extended family, etc). I've seen it so many times... http://www.arc.gov.au/selection-report-discovery-early-career-researcher-award-2017 http://www.arc.gov.au/selection-report-discovery-early-caree...
  - a_bonobo 10y ago
    Where is the problem? 16.5% and 17% is almost identical? Science has been and always will be an international effort, if you shut out foreign researchers you might as well close down science in Australia. It doesn't matter whether a foreign-born researcher gets an ARC DECRA grant as that money goes to an Australian university anyway, funds Australian students etc., it's not like a DECRA grant goes to your own bank account and you can only spend it on yourself. I've seen the opposite to you, researchers coming from overseas because no-one else has their skills inside Australia, training Australian students here, and then staying on as PR. Scientists who leave Australia still keep on collaborating with Australian researchers and universities, it's not like they burn all bridges. I co-supervise with quite a few overseas-based researchers who left Australia for career opportunities, they're still adjunct here.
    - daleroberts 10y ago
      I agree that having foreigners come is great for science in Australia but it's a bit dramatic to say "you might as well close down science in Australia". An ARC DECRA does go to your own bank account as it pays your salary. Btw, as an Australian you can't apply for a NSF fellowship nor a European fellowship.
      - a_bonobo 10y ago
        An ARC DECRA goes 50% to your university, without you seeing a cent - the rest goes towards whatever your project needs, and yes that includes your salary. You make it sound like it all goes to your bank account which isn't true. You can apply for European fellowships if you reside within Europe, same rule that goes for Europeans living in Australia. See for example the rules for DFG funding in Germany: http://www.dfg.de/en/research_funding/programmes/individual/research_fellowships/in_brief/ http://www.dfg.de/en/research_funding/programmes/individual/... >Eligibility: > International researchers from all disciplines who have completed their scientific training (doctorate)
        daleroberts 10y ago
        In regards to the DFG funding it says that foreigners are allowed "provided they have been resident in Germany for several years and have completed at least three years of scientific work as a doctoral or postdoctoral researcher in the German research system". And from my understanding that is what replacement 457 will ensure. "A DECRA Recipient may be awarded ARC funding of up to $139,369 per year of funding. The per annum salary contribution from the ARC is fixed at $99,369 (2016$), including 30 per cent on-costs, and up to a maximum of $40,000 project costs." - From ARC funding rules for DECRA. So basically, close to $100K per annum goes to you (pre-tax) for 3 years and $30K to the university per annum. For project costs it depends on how you spend them.
- sengork 10y ago
  I would distinguish between PhD and IT work when it comes to 457 visas. In practice 457, within the IT field at least, has rarely served its intended purpose and often been misused. Likewise it has deterred many locals from considering IT as an area of study. On the other hand PhD applicants are much closer to the intended purposes of the 457. For example research cannot be developed in the same manner and quantity as IT.
  - ripuarian 10y ago
    If we work hard enough, in IT, we automate away your particular job, whatever that may be that you are doing with your PhD. So, a program replaces you. So, you don't get paid out your salary and you join the ranks of starving PhDs. Furthermore, we do this every day, as a matter of routine. We make truck loads of money automating away jobs like yours. So, do not draw our attention to your field, because we may re-prioritize the list of jobs to be destroyed, and pick your job from the list, first.
    - barakathecat 10y ago
      This is unnecessarily hostile and does not address the parent.
    - joncampbelldev 10y ago
      Of all jobs to be automated any time soon I think PhD level researchers should feel pretty safe and secure.
      - tzakrajs 10y ago
        My guess is it was sarcasm. What a funny notion it was.
        joncampbelldev 10y ago
        Given their comment history, it's either not sarcasm or they need to find a new joke.
- Khaine 10y ago
  It really is good news. 457 visas have been massively abused. Last week there was an article about 475 visas being used to bring in real estate agents from China to sell homes in Australia. During the mining boom they were exploited to bring in 'chefs' to work at mcdonalds in mining towns. These aren't jobs where there are skills shortages. These are just jobs to keep wages down.
  - viraptor 10y ago
    That doesn't seem like there's a need to change the program. It seems like gov should just enforce the existing rules, or make position descriptions more precise. McD position != Chef. Real estate agents shouldn't be on the list if there's no shortage. Enforcing the current rules and spot checks that would make employers less likely to cheat on descriptions should be enough.
  - valuearb 10y ago
    If the demand for chefs and real estate agents are so high that the costs of paying for visa applications and relocating them from half way round the world are worth it, I'm not worried about the domestics. They are doing fine.
    - Khaine 10y ago
      They aren't bringing in real chefs, they are bringing in low waged employees. Do you think you really need to have a culinary degree to work at McDonalds? What specialist skills does a real estate agent have? Australia's unemployment rate is 5.9%, Youth unemployment is 13.3% You really don't think that Australia's youth should be prioritised for working at a McDonalds?
- cylinder 10y ago
  PhD should be able to get points for independent or state nominated migration though which is a far better system than 457.
  - a_bonobo 10y ago
    This doesn't really work either anymore, changed on the same day. Almost all biology and science related jobs have been deleted from the list of skilled migration jobs (NOT just 457, this includes all skills-based migration). https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Work/Work/Skills-assessment-and-assessing-authorities/skilled-occupations-lists/removed-skilled-occupations https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Work/Work/Skills-assessment-a... Removed: - Life Scientist (General) - Microbiologist - Biochemist - Biotechnologist - Geophysicist - Natural and Physical Science Professionals NEC (this one is a catchall) https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Work/Work/Skills-assessment-and-assessing-authorities/skilled-occupations-lists/removed-skilled-occupations https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Work/Work/Skills-assessment-a...
phsource 10y ago
Looking at this list, the professions that Turnbull wants to remove is incredibly broad. As a Canadian in the US, I'm not 100% clear, but it seems like the 457 visa is a lot like the H1-B. With that comparison, it's really surprising to see professions like: * Chemical engineer * Petroleum engineer * Electronics engineer * Web developer on the list at the bottom. If someone announced they were taking these professions off the H1-B list in the US, I'm pretty sure there'd be a huge uproar. This is not even to mention that lots of these sound pretty important for Australia's resource economy. Can someone educate me on the situation from a more Australian point of view?
- cynix 10y ago
  A lot of "programmers/web developers" on this visa are scammers looking for a quick way to gain permanent residency (apparently it's a lot easier for a random person to claim they're a programmer than other professions that require actual skill). There's a whole industry of businesses providing "employment" to these people for a fee. I think the idea is to replace this visa with one that has more stringent skill/language requirements to weed out these scammers.
  - joshka 10y ago
    It's easy to suggest this type of fraud and assume it's true based on merit. Do you have any proof of the above statements or is this speculation?
    - empressplay 10y ago
      I personally discovered a hair salon that was advertising for a "full time web developer" to manage their website (lol) with the plan to then use that (unfilled, obviously, given the extremely weak salary they were offering) position to bring in a "web developer" hairdresser on a 457. The system is seriously abused. EDIT: I guess the truth hurts?
      - ripuarian 10y ago
empressplay 10y ago
Hey TCS, don't let the door hit you on the way out ;)
Vanit 10y ago
The company I work for has hired 2 students via 457s that completed their engineering work experience with us during their degree. Finding high quality employees this way worked great for us, it's a shame that it won't work anymore, as I understand it.
forgottenacc57 10y ago
457 visas were very inflexible for the visa holder .... you needed to be sponsored by the employer and not many employers were interested in doing that.
thomas-b 10y ago
A lot of it is summarized here: http://www.border.gov.au/WorkinginAustralia/Documents/abolition-replacement-457.pdf http://www.border.gov.au/WorkinginAustralia/Documents/abolit... Basically, current holder are fine, 457 Visa will also keep being issued until March 2018 with some extra restrictions starting 1st of July.
Khaine 10y ago
Shortcomings with 457 visas have been identified by Dr Joanna Howe, a senior lecturer in law at the University of Adelaide (see here and here) as well as in the recent Senate report entitled A National Disgrace: The Exploitation of Temporary Work Visa Holders[1]. The four major problems with the system that need fundamental reform, namely: * There are way too many occupations on the skills shortages list. * Those working under the skill level 1 (so-called “Managers and Professionals”) and skill level 2 (so-called “Associate Professionals”) are not subject to any labour market testing to determine whether an Australian can do the job first. Hence, nearly 80% of total 457 visa holders are not currently subject to labour market testing. * Where labour market testing is required it can be overcome by putting an ad on Facebook or other social media and that is enough to show that you’ve tested the labour market – basically a farce. * The 457 visa system is not sufficiently responsive either to higher levels of unemployment, or to labour market changes in specific skilled occupations. [1] http://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Senate/Education_and_Employment/temporary_work_visa/Report http://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Sena...
leminhtan1 10y ago
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leminhtan1 10y ago
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61 points by empressplay 10y ago

This is extremely bad news for Australian science. I'm a postdoctoral researcher who's on a 457 visa out of my PhD. The new 457 replacement requires 3 years of work experience, so we cannot hire people from overseas who've just finished their PhDs. Without a permanent residency outcome we cannot keep these people after their initial contract (which is my own plan). They doubled the price but that's OK (for us!) since the university's reallocation funds pay for that. This is short-sighted pandering to the far-right who've been clamoring for this, and science loses.

throwaway-decra 10y ago
This is not necessarily a bad thing. I think most Australians would be aghast that 'foreign nationals' are taking the places of Australians on competitive fellowship grants like the ARC DECRA. Out of 200 fellowships 60 are given to foreign nationals, i.e., 30%. Personally, I think it is a bad idea to give this type of grant to a foreign national as the researcher will most likely leave Australia once the fellowship is finished as they have little to keep them in the country (extended family, etc). I've seen it so many times... http://www.arc.gov.au/selection-report-discovery-early-career-researcher-award-2017 http://www.arc.gov.au/selection-report-discovery-early-caree...
- a_bonobo 10y ago
  Where is the problem? 16.5% and 17% is almost identical? Science has been and always will be an international effort, if you shut out foreign researchers you might as well close down science in Australia. It doesn't matter whether a foreign-born researcher gets an ARC DECRA grant as that money goes to an Australian university anyway, funds Australian students etc., it's not like a DECRA grant goes to your own bank account and you can only spend it on yourself. I've seen the opposite to you, researchers coming from overseas because no-one else has their skills inside Australia, training Australian students here, and then staying on as PR. Scientists who leave Australia still keep on collaborating with Australian researchers and universities, it's not like they burn all bridges. I co-supervise with quite a few overseas-based researchers who left Australia for career opportunities, they're still adjunct here.
  - daleroberts 10y ago
    I agree that having foreigners come is great for science in Australia but it's a bit dramatic to say "you might as well close down science in Australia". An ARC DECRA does go to your own bank account as it pays your salary. Btw, as an Australian you can't apply for a NSF fellowship nor a European fellowship.
    - a_bonobo 10y ago
      An ARC DECRA goes 50% to your university, without you seeing a cent - the rest goes towards whatever your project needs, and yes that includes your salary. You make it sound like it all goes to your bank account which isn't true. You can apply for European fellowships if you reside within Europe, same rule that goes for Europeans living in Australia. See for example the rules for DFG funding in Germany: http://www.dfg.de/en/research_funding/programmes/individual/research_fellowships/in_brief/ http://www.dfg.de/en/research_funding/programmes/individual/... >Eligibility: > International researchers from all disciplines who have completed their scientific training (doctorate)
      - daleroberts 10y ago
        In regards to the DFG funding it says that foreigners are allowed "provided they have been resident in Germany for several years and have completed at least three years of scientific work as a doctoral or postdoctoral researcher in the German research system". And from my understanding that is what replacement 457 will ensure. "A DECRA Recipient may be awarded ARC funding of up to $139,369 per year of funding. The per annum salary contribution from the ARC is fixed at $99,369 (2016$), including 30 per cent on-costs, and up to a maximum of $40,000 project costs." - From ARC funding rules for DECRA. So basically, close to $100K per annum goes to you (pre-tax) for 3 years and $30K to the university per annum. For project costs it depends on how you spend them.
sengork 10y ago
I would distinguish between PhD and IT work when it comes to 457 visas. In practice 457, within the IT field at least, has rarely served its intended purpose and often been misused. Likewise it has deterred many locals from considering IT as an area of study. On the other hand PhD applicants are much closer to the intended purposes of the 457. For example research cannot be developed in the same manner and quantity as IT.
- ripuarian 10y ago
  If we work hard enough, in IT, we automate away your particular job, whatever that may be that you are doing with your PhD. So, a program replaces you. So, you don't get paid out your salary and you join the ranks of starving PhDs. Furthermore, we do this every day, as a matter of routine. We make truck loads of money automating away jobs like yours. So, do not draw our attention to your field, because we may re-prioritize the list of jobs to be destroyed, and pick your job from the list, first.
  - barakathecat 10y ago
    This is unnecessarily hostile and does not address the parent.
  - joncampbelldev 10y ago
    Of all jobs to be automated any time soon I think PhD level researchers should feel pretty safe and secure.
    - tzakrajs 10y ago
      My guess is it was sarcasm. What a funny notion it was.
      - joncampbelldev 10y ago
        Given their comment history, it's either not sarcasm or they need to find a new joke.
Khaine 10y ago
It really is good news. 457 visas have been massively abused. Last week there was an article about 475 visas being used to bring in real estate agents from China to sell homes in Australia. During the mining boom they were exploited to bring in 'chefs' to work at mcdonalds in mining towns. These aren't jobs where there are skills shortages. These are just jobs to keep wages down.
- viraptor 10y ago
  That doesn't seem like there's a need to change the program. It seems like gov should just enforce the existing rules, or make position descriptions more precise. McD position != Chef. Real estate agents shouldn't be on the list if there's no shortage. Enforcing the current rules and spot checks that would make employers less likely to cheat on descriptions should be enough.
- valuearb 10y ago
  If the demand for chefs and real estate agents are so high that the costs of paying for visa applications and relocating them from half way round the world are worth it, I'm not worried about the domestics. They are doing fine.
  - Khaine 10y ago
    They aren't bringing in real chefs, they are bringing in low waged employees. Do you think you really need to have a culinary degree to work at McDonalds? What specialist skills does a real estate agent have? Australia's unemployment rate is 5.9%, Youth unemployment is 13.3% You really don't think that Australia's youth should be prioritised for working at a McDonalds?
cylinder 10y ago
PhD should be able to get points for independent or state nominated migration though which is a far better system than 457.
- a_bonobo 10y ago
  This doesn't really work either anymore, changed on the same day. Almost all biology and science related jobs have been deleted from the list of skilled migration jobs (NOT just 457, this includes all skills-based migration). https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Work/Work/Skills-assessment-and-assessing-authorities/skilled-occupations-lists/removed-skilled-occupations https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Work/Work/Skills-assessment-a... Removed: - Life Scientist (General) - Microbiologist - Biochemist - Biotechnologist - Geophysicist - Natural and Physical Science Professionals NEC (this one is a catchall) https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Work/Work/Skills-assessment-and-assessing-authorities/skilled-occupations-lists/removed-skilled-occupations https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Work/Work/Skills-assessment-a...

phsource 10y ago

Looking at this list, the professions that Turnbull wants to remove is incredibly broad. As a Canadian in the US, I'm not 100% clear, but it seems like the 457 visa is a lot like the H1-B. With that comparison, it's really surprising to see professions like: * Chemical engineer * Petroleum engineer * Electronics engineer * Web developer on the list at the bottom. If someone announced they were taking these professions off the H1-B list in the US, I'm pretty sure there'd be a huge uproar. This is not even to mention that lots of these sound pretty important for Australia's resource economy. Can someone educate me on the situation from a more Australian point of view?

cynix 10y ago
A lot of "programmers/web developers" on this visa are scammers looking for a quick way to gain permanent residency (apparently it's a lot easier for a random person to claim they're a programmer than other professions that require actual skill). There's a whole industry of businesses providing "employment" to these people for a fee. I think the idea is to replace this visa with one that has more stringent skill/language requirements to weed out these scammers.
- joshka 10y ago
  It's easy to suggest this type of fraud and assume it's true based on merit. Do you have any proof of the above statements or is this speculation?
  - empressplay 10y ago
    I personally discovered a hair salon that was advertising for a "full time web developer" to manage their website (lol) with the plan to then use that (unfilled, obviously, given the extremely weak salary they were offering) position to bring in a "web developer" hairdresser on a 457. The system is seriously abused. EDIT: I guess the truth hurts?
    - ripuarian 10y ago

empressplay 10y ago

Hey TCS, don't let the door hit you on the way out ;)

Vanit 10y ago

The company I work for has hired 2 students via 457s that completed their engineering work experience with us during their degree. Finding high quality employees this way worked great for us, it's a shame that it won't work anymore, as I understand it.

forgottenacc57 10y ago

457 visas were very inflexible for the visa holder .... you needed to be sponsored by the employer and not many employers were interested in doing that.

thomas-b 10y ago

A lot of it is summarized here: http://www.border.gov.au/WorkinginAustralia/Documents/abolition-replacement-457.pdf http://www.border.gov.au/WorkinginAustralia/Documents/abolit... Basically, current holder are fine, 457 Visa will also keep being issued until March 2018 with some extra restrictions starting 1st of July.

Khaine 10y ago

Shortcomings with 457 visas have been identified by Dr Joanna Howe, a senior lecturer in law at the University of Adelaide (see here and here) as well as in the recent Senate report entitled A National Disgrace: The Exploitation of Temporary Work Visa Holders[1]. The four major problems with the system that need fundamental reform, namely: * There are way too many occupations on the skills shortages list. * Those working under the skill level 1 (so-called “Managers and Professionals”) and skill level 2 (so-called “Associate Professionals”) are not subject to any labour market testing to determine whether an Australian can do the job first. Hence, nearly 80% of total 457 visa holders are not currently subject to labour market testing. * Where labour market testing is required it can be overcome by putting an ad on Facebook or other social media and that is enough to show that you’ve tested the labour market – basically a farce. * The 457 visa system is not sufficiently responsive either to higher levels of unemployment, or to labour market changes in specific skilled occupations. [1] http://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Senate/Education_and_Employment/temporary_work_visa/Report http://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Sena...

leminhtan1 10y ago

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leminhtan1 10y ago

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