5 ms·

M$ will never, ever, be forgiven for the FUD that put OS in dire straits.

by gonvaled 10y ago

praneshp 10y ago
O$ is not in dire straits. No point in hating on them if that's the reason.
- gonvaled 10y ago
  Without the forces that were pushed against OS for the good part of the 90s, it would have arguably taken over the software world. In that situation, Apple would not have succeeded as a walled garden, as it has. So, although OS-the-product is still going strong, OS-the-movement was effectively stopped on its tracks. Which is a very bad thing, in my opinion.
  - ksk 10y ago
    I'd argue the opposite. That OS-the-product hasn't actually succeeded because it doesn't have a business model that works. I'd guess about 0.000001% of open source projects actually make money (sure, maybe making money is not their goal, but it sure helps spread the word). Where as 100% of proprietary products make money - whether they make enough money is a separate issue ofcource ;) I don't believe that the FUD from MS actually accomplished anything besides a very minor short term benefit where people didn't touch the GPL for legal reasons. Businesses are smart and they are very capable of figuring out what does and doesn't make money. Heck even Google figured out that being open is bad for business. OS-the-movement OTOH is going strong. Its cool to have contributed to an open source project. Its cool to have all your work up on github. Its pretty much a gold star on your resume if you have a popular OSS project...
lawik 10y ago
Okay, so _you_ will never forgive them for that. I doubt that you can apeak for most of OSS. I was pissed at the time, I've loathed them plenty. But corporations are not people, they are generally without morals, I never expected them to be or do good. Now the leadership is different, the company mostly acts differently. I can still be vary of them but I'll applaud their good calls.
pluma 10y ago
You don't need to forgive someone to accept that they have changed and that there are bigger problems. If you hated MS in the '90s/'00s for what they did back then, you should have that same hatred right now, but not especially for MS but also for Apple and (to a lesser extent) Google.
- gonvaled 10y ago
  Apple is the nail in the coffin. The coffin was ordered by M$. But the battle, and the war, was lost long before Apple became the behemonth it is now. Apple did nothing to kill OS, it arrived when it was dead. As for Google, they actually played a positive role back then. Whatever they do now, does not matter anymore. The window of oportunity closed long ago, and it was M$ who did it.
  - pluma 10y ago
    > they actually played a positive role back then Stop living in the past. Do you just want to wallow in self-pity about what could have been or are you actually upset about real problems that are fixable? Apple is halting progress of web standards right now. Apple is locking in users into its closed ecosystem (good luck trying to develop for iOS without macOS). Google and Facebook are "embracing, extending, extinguishing" the web (AMP, Instant Articles, PNaCl, etc). Even the W3C has bowed down to the copyright industry with proprietary window dressing in the name of DRM. Not everything these companies do is evil, the attacks are far less orchestrated than those carried out by Microsoft back in the days, but they're happening and they're here. If you just want to hate Microsoft for nostalgia's sake like the grumpy old vet who still can't get over how the US lost in Vietnam, that's fine. But don't pretend you care about principles if all you can do is hold a grudge against what was and don't give a fuck about what is.
    - gonvaled 10y ago
      I do not directly (the world is a complicated place) support, financially or otherwise, Apple or M$. I boycott them both whenever I get the chance. I am relatively cool about Google. I do not live in the past, but I still like to point out what happened, whenever I get the chance. They are solely to blame (with a minor role by Sun / SCO) of the mess we are in. As I already mentioned, Apple is simply evil, but is not to blame for the destruction of OS. For me to change my mind about M$, BIG things should happen. I think the minor grievance of referring to them by M$ can be endured, even by sensitive bystanders.

M$ will never, ever, be forgiven for the FUD that put OS in dire straits.

praneshp 10y ago

O$ is not in dire straits. No point in hating on them if that's the reason.

gonvaled 10y ago
Without the forces that were pushed against OS for the good part of the 90s, it would have arguably taken over the software world. In that situation, Apple would not have succeeded as a walled garden, as it has. So, although OS-the-product is still going strong, OS-the-movement was effectively stopped on its tracks. Which is a very bad thing, in my opinion.
- ksk 10y ago
  I'd argue the opposite. That OS-the-product hasn't actually succeeded because it doesn't have a business model that works. I'd guess about 0.000001% of open source projects actually make money (sure, maybe making money is not their goal, but it sure helps spread the word). Where as 100% of proprietary products make money - whether they make enough money is a separate issue ofcource ;) I don't believe that the FUD from MS actually accomplished anything besides a very minor short term benefit where people didn't touch the GPL for legal reasons. Businesses are smart and they are very capable of figuring out what does and doesn't make money. Heck even Google figured out that being open is bad for business. OS-the-movement OTOH is going strong. Its cool to have contributed to an open source project. Its cool to have all your work up on github. Its pretty much a gold star on your resume if you have a popular OSS project...

lawik 10y ago

Okay, so _you_ will never forgive them for that. I doubt that you can apeak for most of OSS. I was pissed at the time, I've loathed them plenty. But corporations are not people, they are generally without morals, I never expected them to be or do good. Now the leadership is different, the company mostly acts differently. I can still be vary of them but I'll applaud their good calls.

pluma 10y ago

You don't need to forgive someone to accept that they have changed and that there are bigger problems. If you hated MS in the '90s/'00s for what they did back then, you should have that same hatred right now, but not especially for MS but also for Apple and (to a lesser extent) Google.

gonvaled 10y ago
Apple is the nail in the coffin. The coffin was ordered by M$. But the battle, and the war, was lost long before Apple became the behemonth it is now. Apple did nothing to kill OS, it arrived when it was dead. As for Google, they actually played a positive role back then. Whatever they do now, does not matter anymore. The window of oportunity closed long ago, and it was M$ who did it.
- pluma 10y ago
  > they actually played a positive role back then Stop living in the past. Do you just want to wallow in self-pity about what could have been or are you actually upset about real problems that are fixable? Apple is halting progress of web standards right now. Apple is locking in users into its closed ecosystem (good luck trying to develop for iOS without macOS). Google and Facebook are "embracing, extending, extinguishing" the web (AMP, Instant Articles, PNaCl, etc). Even the W3C has bowed down to the copyright industry with proprietary window dressing in the name of DRM. Not everything these companies do is evil, the attacks are far less orchestrated than those carried out by Microsoft back in the days, but they're happening and they're here. If you just want to hate Microsoft for nostalgia's sake like the grumpy old vet who still can't get over how the US lost in Vietnam, that's fine. But don't pretend you care about principles if all you can do is hold a grudge against what was and don't give a fuck about what is.
  - gonvaled 10y ago
    I do not directly (the world is a complicated place) support, financially or otherwise, Apple or M$. I boycott them both whenever I get the chance. I am relatively cool about Google. I do not live in the past, but I still like to point out what happened, whenever I get the chance. They are solely to blame (with a minor role by Sun / SCO) of the mess we are in. As I already mentioned, Apple is simply evil, but is not to blame for the destruction of OS. For me to change my mind about M$, BIG things should happen. I think the minor grievance of referring to them by M$ can be endured, even by sensitive bystanders.