6 ms·

Seriously, show me where I can pay an almost-reasonable (say, 10-15%) upgrade fee for 3-4" more legroom over whatever the lowest is they can get away with (so,

by ashark 10y ago

Seriously, show me where I can pay an almost-reasonable (say, 10-15%) upgrade fee for 3-4" more legroom over whatever the lowest is they can get away with (so, what they actually use in economy ordinarily) and I'll pay it every single time I fly, and I'm not even that tall. AFAIK leg room and other space considerations aren't even presented to me when shopping for tickets, but too little of it is my #1 complaint about flying, which is saying something because most things about flying are complaint-worthy.

maxerickson 10y ago
United calls that "Economy Plus". Not sure the price structure matches what you say: https://www.united.com/CMS/en-US/products/travelproducts/Pages/EconomyPlus.aspx https://www.united.com/CMS/en-US/products/travelproducts/Pag... Exit row seats are also often first available to members of various frequent flyer programs and usually have a modest amount of extra legroom.
- ashark 10y ago
  First: thanks for the link, interesting to know that there's kind-of something out there for this. From the FAQ on the linked page: > Who can purchase Economy Plus seating? All customers who are not traveling on a Basic Economy ticket may purchase Economy Plus seating subject to availability. Advance complimentary access to Economy Plus is available to Premier® Platinum members and higher (for themselves and up to eight companions), and Premier Gold members (for themselves and one companion). Premier Silver members and one companion enjoy complimentary access to Economy Plus seating, when available, upon check-in. I just... what is this even? How about just putting the legroom on ticket sale data—including for sales on 3rd party sites—and selling different ones at different prices? I don't want to become an expert on all this weird tricking-you-into-spending-more-money-with-us-than-you-should-if-you're-not-super-careful crap for every airline I might fly with, I just want to buy a ticket and fly every now and then, and I'm willing to pay for more legroom. How would I even begin to comparison shop for this upgrade vs. other airlines? I know the answer is "you're not supposed to because they're trying to screw you" but that's an awful answer. This is precisely where regulation is useful: transparency in WTF you're buying and standards in how it's presented so competition can work its magic without consumers having to learn a bunch of otherwise-useless junk (the worst of which is "how to navigate systems and jargon that are specific to one vendor") in order to confidently make a simple transaction.
  - true_religion 10y ago
    Airlines are optimized for frequent fliers, which is why their copy isn't very approachable if you are thinking from the point of view of making arbitrary choices. Frequent fliers don't do that generally. They operate on making decisions that will last at least a year like what ticket class or flier program to use.
    - cardiffspaceman 10y ago
      > Optimized for frequent fliers Rather, frequent fliers out of necessity soon learn these things, and start to speak the language(s) that the airlines use instead of language that muggles understand. Even frequent flyers don't always instantly know why I don't fly in row 1, though I do fly first class. It's easier to know what you're getting when you buy a TV than it is to do so when buying an airline ticket, even if you buy the TV on impulse, and even though TV vendors are looking to extract as much as they can from TV buyers.
      - ashark 10y ago
        Exactly. A ticket for a seat on an aircraft has no justification for being more complex or confusing to buy than, say, an apple. It ought to be way less complex than apples, in fact, since they can rot or suffer from poor storage and so on.
        mikeash 10y ago
        It is that simple. Punch in your departure and destination airports, click click click, done. You want to control every detail of the result while also spending as little money as possible? That takes some effort, with both flights and apples. Actually, getting the best price for a flight is easier than with apples. I'd have to spend all day calling (or visiting!) stores in my area to see who has the best price for apples, since most stores don't make that information available online in any form. Accomplishing the same for a flight takes literally thirty seconds.
  - chiph 10y ago
hypersoar 10y ago
In my experience, Delta and Alaska both offer exactly that. Basically, they're charging extra for the exit rows. I usually find that they're available whenever the flight isn't close to full.
com2kid 10y ago
> Seriously, show me where I can pay an almost-reasonable (say, 10-15%) upgrade fee for 3-4" more legroom over whatever the lowest is they can get away with JetBlue and Delta both offer this. JetBlue has plenty of leg room anyway, I'm 6' FWIW and I find paying for the upgrade to be needless. Delta it can be worth it for longer flights.
- ashark 10y ago
  The problem is comparison shopping for these upgrades. Is this flight eligible (i.e. are there any upgrades left on this aircraft)? Is this ticket eligible (see my other comment about United's bizarre rules, some tickets being wholly ineligible for the upgrade—how do you know that stuff for all the airlines you might choose for a given flight?) How much leg room is there to begin with? How does that compare to the flight I was on last time? How (if at all) does that change if this is a flight "by" major carrier X but actually serviced domestically by subcontractor Y with the international portion handled by carrier Z? How likely am I to realize my upgrade in an industry where I might not even fly on the flight I paid for at all? All of this must be investigated on a carrier-by-carrier and flight-by-flight basis, from what I can tell. Where can I filter flights from multiple carriers to not show tickets providing under some level of legroom?
  - mikeash 10y ago
    I wonder if an old-fashioned travel agent could take care of that for you. Failing that, maybe the concierge service many credit cards offer, or even something like getmagic.com. I haven't tried these myself, but it seems like one of those things you can pay some money to get someone else to worry about it for you.
    - GFischer 10y ago
      Yep, travel agents can do that for you. I'll forward the suggestion of having this information (seat dimensions, extra legroom) more readily available to agents when booking (I work for the largest "traditional" travel agents group remaining).
joelrunyon 10y ago
That's where status comes into play & has definite benefits. Basic status on AA will give you economy plus seating for free. HUGE for anyone over 6'
rayiner 10y ago
I don't get your complaint. Pretty much every domestic airline I've flown in the last few years has Economy Plus or something similar, which is an economy seat with extra leg room. You just select it at check-in and pay $30-$75. What's so hard about that?

by ashark 10y ago

maxerickson 10y ago

United calls that "Economy Plus". Not sure the price structure matches what you say: https://www.united.com/CMS/en-US/products/travelproducts/Pages/EconomyPlus.aspx https://www.united.com/CMS/en-US/products/travelproducts/Pag... Exit row seats are also often first available to members of various frequent flyer programs and usually have a modest amount of extra legroom.

ashark 10y ago
First: thanks for the link, interesting to know that there's kind-of something out there for this. From the FAQ on the linked page: > Who can purchase Economy Plus seating? All customers who are not traveling on a Basic Economy ticket may purchase Economy Plus seating subject to availability. Advance complimentary access to Economy Plus is available to Premier® Platinum members and higher (for themselves and up to eight companions), and Premier Gold members (for themselves and one companion). Premier Silver members and one companion enjoy complimentary access to Economy Plus seating, when available, upon check-in. I just... what is this even? How about just putting the legroom on ticket sale data—including for sales on 3rd party sites—and selling different ones at different prices? I don't want to become an expert on all this weird tricking-you-into-spending-more-money-with-us-than-you-should-if-you're-not-super-careful crap for every airline I might fly with, I just want to buy a ticket and fly every now and then, and I'm willing to pay for more legroom. How would I even begin to comparison shop for this upgrade vs. other airlines? I know the answer is "you're not supposed to because they're trying to screw you" but that's an awful answer. This is precisely where regulation is useful: transparency in WTF you're buying and standards in how it's presented so competition can work its magic without consumers having to learn a bunch of otherwise-useless junk (the worst of which is "how to navigate systems and jargon that are specific to one vendor") in order to confidently make a simple transaction.
- true_religion 10y ago
  Airlines are optimized for frequent fliers, which is why their copy isn't very approachable if you are thinking from the point of view of making arbitrary choices. Frequent fliers don't do that generally. They operate on making decisions that will last at least a year like what ticket class or flier program to use.
  - cardiffspaceman 10y ago
    > Optimized for frequent fliers Rather, frequent fliers out of necessity soon learn these things, and start to speak the language(s) that the airlines use instead of language that muggles understand. Even frequent flyers don't always instantly know why I don't fly in row 1, though I do fly first class. It's easier to know what you're getting when you buy a TV than it is to do so when buying an airline ticket, even if you buy the TV on impulse, and even though TV vendors are looking to extract as much as they can from TV buyers.
    - ashark 10y ago
      Exactly. A ticket for a seat on an aircraft has no justification for being more complex or confusing to buy than, say, an apple. It ought to be way less complex than apples, in fact, since they can rot or suffer from poor storage and so on.
      - mikeash 10y ago
        It is that simple. Punch in your departure and destination airports, click click click, done. You want to control every detail of the result while also spending as little money as possible? That takes some effort, with both flights and apples. Actually, getting the best price for a flight is easier than with apples. I'd have to spend all day calling (or visiting!) stores in my area to see who has the best price for apples, since most stores don't make that information available online in any form. Accomplishing the same for a flight takes literally thirty seconds.
- chiph 10y ago

hypersoar 10y ago

In my experience, Delta and Alaska both offer exactly that. Basically, they're charging extra for the exit rows. I usually find that they're available whenever the flight isn't close to full.

com2kid 10y ago

> Seriously, show me where I can pay an almost-reasonable (say, 10-15%) upgrade fee for 3-4" more legroom over whatever the lowest is they can get away with JetBlue and Delta both offer this. JetBlue has plenty of leg room anyway, I'm 6' FWIW and I find paying for the upgrade to be needless. Delta it can be worth it for longer flights.

ashark 10y ago
The problem is comparison shopping for these upgrades. Is this flight eligible (i.e. are there any upgrades left on this aircraft)? Is this ticket eligible (see my other comment about United's bizarre rules, some tickets being wholly ineligible for the upgrade—how do you know that stuff for all the airlines you might choose for a given flight?) How much leg room is there to begin with? How does that compare to the flight I was on last time? How (if at all) does that change if this is a flight "by" major carrier X but actually serviced domestically by subcontractor Y with the international portion handled by carrier Z? How likely am I to realize my upgrade in an industry where I might not even fly on the flight I paid for at all? All of this must be investigated on a carrier-by-carrier and flight-by-flight basis, from what I can tell. Where can I filter flights from multiple carriers to not show tickets providing under some level of legroom?
- mikeash 10y ago
  I wonder if an old-fashioned travel agent could take care of that for you. Failing that, maybe the concierge service many credit cards offer, or even something like getmagic.com. I haven't tried these myself, but it seems like one of those things you can pay some money to get someone else to worry about it for you.
  - GFischer 10y ago
    Yep, travel agents can do that for you. I'll forward the suggestion of having this information (seat dimensions, extra legroom) more readily available to agents when booking (I work for the largest "traditional" travel agents group remaining).

joelrunyon 10y ago

That's where status comes into play & has definite benefits. Basic status on AA will give you economy plus seating for free. HUGE for anyone over 6'

rayiner 10y ago

I don't get your complaint. Pretty much every domestic airline I've flown in the last few years has Economy Plus or something similar, which is an economy seat with extra leg room. You just select it at check-in and pay $30-$75. What's so hard about that?