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Lots of people are saying this is absolutely awful but I really don't get it. > There are currently no quotas on how many crabs one can bleed because biomedica

Lots of people are saying this is absolutely awful but I really don't get it. > There are currently no quotas on how many crabs one can bleed because biomedical laboratories drain only a third of the crab's blood, then put them back into the water, alive. If it's just a needle insertion, why is this such a big deal? The crabs shouldn't be bleeding after, and I don't see why they would be very damaged. It's saving human lives. I don't think it's ridiculous to say that human lives are worth more than some momentary discomfort for crabs.

serf 10y ago
>momentary discomfort for crabs. I agree that the benefit for humans is there, but it's often times a bit more than than just 'momentary discomfort' for the crab[0] [0]: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10236244.2011.642505 http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10236244.2011.642...
- saganus 10y ago
  Just for the tl;dr: "Overall mortalities of bled horseshoe crabs were 17.8% (male = 18.75%; female = 17.2%), while mortalities of unbled crabs were 3.5%." So it appears it indeed affects the crabs.
drewbug01 10y ago
> If it's just a needle insertion, why is this such a big deal? The article talks about how there's a bit of evidence to suggest that it may be a big deal, but that we really don't understand these animals so we're not really sure.
justinator 10y ago
> I don't think it's ridiculous to say that human lives are worth more than some momentary discomfort for crabs. Well: says the human.
- camelNotation 10y ago
  Well, yes. Whose side are you on, anyway?
- aeturnum 10y ago
  You're right, people would never accept a regime where humans were drained of some of their blood in order to give other humans medical treatment with that blood.
  - djrogers 10y ago
    > You're right, people would never accept a regime where humans were drained of some of their blood in order to give other humans medical treatment with that blood. Yes, that'd be due to the fact that we see humans as equals, and the same is not true for humans and horseshoe crabs.
  - mirimir 10y ago
    Well, it's OK if it's voluntary. But that gets murky for prisoners, who arguably can't freely decline.
    - maxerickson 10y ago
      Even setting aside statistics about various communicable diseases, prejudice would make use of prisoner blood a tenuous thing. (I mean beliefs about prisoners being "bad" or "tainted" or whatever and people not wanting to receive their blood)
      - throwanem 10y ago
        Few whole-blood transfusions occur in a setting where the patient can inquire in detail as to provenance.
        maxerickson 10y ago
        Of course. That doesn't mean people wouldn't react to news about blood being collected in prisons.
ARothfusz 10y ago
Its not "just" a needle insertion. There's no measurement of how much blood is taken from each crab, so there's no way to know how much damage is done on an individual basis. Imagine any other animal bled this way (https://www.thedodo.com/horseshoe-crabs-blood-tests-1531014029.html https://www.thedodo.com/horseshoe-crabs-blood-tests-15310140...) and then "released" with claims of no harm done. I did field work to study horseshoe crabs' near-shore behavior as part of my master's work. Fortunately we weren't bleeding them.
brianbreslin 10y ago
In the article it says they don't know exactly how many survive. Their original estimate was 15% died, but now think its closer to 30%. They also suggest that many have their reproduction impaired as well.
mattbessey 10y ago
Try reading the article next time. An estimated 30% of the crabs handle this so called "momentary discomfort" by _dying_.
- sokoloff 10y ago
  Your comment would have been just as informative if you eliminated or softened the first sentence. From the guidelines, which serve to improve the civility of news.yc significantly: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Please don't insinuate that someone hasn't read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that."

serf 10y ago

>momentary discomfort for crabs. I agree that the benefit for humans is there, but it's often times a bit more than than just 'momentary discomfort' for the crab[0] [0]: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10236244.2011.642505 http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10236244.2011.642...

saganus 10y ago
Just for the tl;dr: "Overall mortalities of bled horseshoe crabs were 17.8% (male = 18.75%; female = 17.2%), while mortalities of unbled crabs were 3.5%." So it appears it indeed affects the crabs.

drewbug01 10y ago

> If it's just a needle insertion, why is this such a big deal? The article talks about how there's a bit of evidence to suggest that it may be a big deal, but that we really don't understand these animals so we're not really sure.

justinator 10y ago

> I don't think it's ridiculous to say that human lives are worth more than some momentary discomfort for crabs. Well: says the human.

camelNotation 10y ago
Well, yes. Whose side are you on, anyway?
aeturnum 10y ago
You're right, people would never accept a regime where humans were drained of some of their blood in order to give other humans medical treatment with that blood.
- djrogers 10y ago
  > You're right, people would never accept a regime where humans were drained of some of their blood in order to give other humans medical treatment with that blood. Yes, that'd be due to the fact that we see humans as equals, and the same is not true for humans and horseshoe crabs.
- mirimir 10y ago
  Well, it's OK if it's voluntary. But that gets murky for prisoners, who arguably can't freely decline.
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    Even setting aside statistics about various communicable diseases, prejudice would make use of prisoner blood a tenuous thing. (I mean beliefs about prisoners being "bad" or "tainted" or whatever and people not wanting to receive their blood)
    - throwanem 10y ago
      Few whole-blood transfusions occur in a setting where the patient can inquire in detail as to provenance.
      - maxerickson 10y ago
        Of course. That doesn't mean people wouldn't react to news about blood being collected in prisons.

ARothfusz 10y ago

Its not "just" a needle insertion. There's no measurement of how much blood is taken from each crab, so there's no way to know how much damage is done on an individual basis. Imagine any other animal bled this way (https://www.thedodo.com/horseshoe-crabs-blood-tests-1531014029.html https://www.thedodo.com/horseshoe-crabs-blood-tests-15310140...) and then "released" with claims of no harm done. I did field work to study horseshoe crabs' near-shore behavior as part of my master's work. Fortunately we weren't bleeding them.

brianbreslin 10y ago

In the article it says they don't know exactly how many survive. Their original estimate was 15% died, but now think its closer to 30%. They also suggest that many have their reproduction impaired as well.

mattbessey 10y ago

Try reading the article next time. An estimated 30% of the crabs handle this so called "momentary discomfort" by _dying_.

sokoloff 10y ago
Your comment would have been just as informative if you eliminated or softened the first sentence. From the guidelines, which serve to improve the civility of news.yc significantly: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Please don't insinuate that someone hasn't read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that."