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I don't want to start any flamewars, but how much responsibility does Islam have in this development? Are there any Islam-majority countries whose governments a

by ythn 9y ago

I don't want to start any flamewars, but how much responsibility does Islam have in this development? Are there any Islam-majority countries whose governments aren't garbage?

hashkb 9y ago
> I don't want to start any flamewars Really? I'd have chosen different words, or none at all.
xeromal 9y ago
I believe Azerbaijan not only is not a dictatorship, but is also a secular government. Iran isn't a dictatorship. I'm sure there are more, but these are off the top of my head.
- zip1234 9y ago
  "Iran isn't a dictatorship." - The 'Supreme Leader' begs to differ. "The armed forces, judicial system, state television, and other key governmental organizations are under the control of the Supreme Leader of Iran." To be clear, Iran is not totalitarian, but definitely shades of dictatorship.
- cm2187 9y ago
  There are other democracies. Tunisia. Indonesia. There are also free elections in Morocco even if the king has a strong power. But pretty much every muslim country has to deal with a rising, if not dominant islamism in its various forms (of which AKP is one). It really feels like a repeat of communism. The rise of an ideology across the world. It's not an homogeneous block. Various muslim ethnic groups hate each others, as did the Maoists, Stalinists, Trotskyist, etc. It happens pretty much everywhere there is a muslim population. Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Lybia, Egypt, Yemen, Somalia / Eritrea, Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Indonesia, etc. Western leaders like to pretend that islamists are a minority of extremist groups but the reality is that pretty much anytime there has been a free-ish election in any of these countries, the islamists toped the polls, or got an outright majority. I think it will get worse before it gets better.
  - guftagu 9y ago
    When was the last time Pakistan elected an Islamist government? The last PPP government was pretty secular and the current one is also in the middle if not purely secular. The only time a truly Islamist government was formed in Pakistan was when US puppet dictator Zia ul Haq took over to fight the commies in Afghanistan. Pakistan has many different Islamist parties but they struggle to get even a handful of seats.
- Atropos 9y ago
  The Economist's democracy index disagrees, putting Azerbaijan into the "Authoritarian" index. And apprently their President is in power since 2003, which is usually not a good sign. Iran certainly cannot be called a full democracy, the religious council has to approve candidacies for President - it isn't even clear if the current President Rouhani can pose as a candidate! But there are some Muslim democracies working better, like Indonesia and Malaysia.
alextheparrot 9y ago
While your comment wasn't necessarily constructive in general, I'd ask you to consider that it is possible Islam can be used as a tool by "garbage" governments as a means of cementing their power.
- rjtavares 9y ago
  Just like Christianity was in previous centuries.
  - _jal 9y ago
    > Just like Christianity is in North Carolina today. FIFY
    - jbmorgado 9y ago
      North Carolina that place where the tribal leaders frequently condemn to death by stoning of by being burned alive woman that don't cover their head or that engage in any contact with some non family related male before marriage without any impedance from national or local government? Or that North Carolina where homosexual people are flogged and hung if they repeat their "crime"? Or North Carolina where if you declare yourself an atheist or join another religion your own father and brothers will cut your throat? Oh, wait, nope, none of that actually happens in North Carolina and you comparing Islamic countries ruled by Sharia with North Carolina to try and tell people that Christian majority countries are just as bad is just some absolutely nonsensical hyperbole.
- eveningcoffee 9y ago
  Not only Islam but also other religions can be used as a tool. Putin is investing heavily in Russian Orthodox, in Poland Catholicism can be used as such tool (and to my understanding has been already used).
  - Freak_NL 9y ago
    Buddhism in Myanmar comes to mind as well, where Muslims are the oppressed party. And Judaism in Israel of course. Religion has always been a useful tool to control a populace — the more orthodox or fundamentalist the better; useful if you want to create a national identity from the ground up. Isn't the hallmark of a healthy democracy a strict separation of church and state, regardless of the religion concerned?
mozumder 9y ago
Same garbage isolationism is happening in US, Philippines, UK, India, etc.. None of these countries are Muslim majority. This is all a reaction to changing times, with globalization a key driver in loss of status. Some cultures can handle it, some can't.
makmanalp 9y ago
This doesn't have much to do with Islam as much as just a mishmash of ultra-nationalism / pseudo-populism / authoritarianism. It's the same class of rules like Putin, Chavez, Trump. Usually these start with a group of people who are ignored in one way or another, or aren't in the good situation that they once were, but then a viable leader comes and speaks to their worries, and promises a better future. This leader represents some kind of identity characteristic that has been shunned in that society (islamist / not politically correct / strongman authoritarian / xenophobe), which draws the ire of everyone else and is criticized heavily in the media. This adds to their popularity among their supporters, overall polarization, and the collapse of sane political discourse, which gives them a better chance. Then it's all about "give them a chance", and after they get elected, sooner or later, they turn authoritarian when things get tough. They blame foreign countries for every problem they have, etc. Eventually they remove the separation of power, replace powerful government positions with their own people, solidify support among their base, and change laws to make competition harder. It happens so often that I get tired of seeing it over and over.
- anthonybsd 9y ago
  I think when 99% of the country is Muslim, your position is not very defensible. You talk about finding "a group of people who are ignored in one way or another". It just so happens that in Turkey this group of people is composed of rural dwellers and their chief concern is to force the urban women to cover up and to squash all of the urban dwelling infidels. This is the identity characteristic that Erdogan embraced, and to claim that Islam doesn't have much to do with it is misleading at best.
Certhas 9y ago
THe three largest Muslim majority countries are Indonesia, Paksitan and Bangladesh. Bangladesh has been ruled by a woman (a long running rivalry between Sheikh Hasina and Khaleda Zia) since 1991 pretty much continuously. All three have secular, and at least nominally democratic governments. Not without their problems, far from it. There are many reasons for these, domestic, colonial, Islamic neihbours, etc... but I think your comment betrays an extremely superficial view of the world.
bsaul 9y ago
Your comment being downvoted is just a symptom of how impossible discussion about islam religion has become, even in the west. What you're asking is exactly what the AKP party has been trying to answer in its own way, as stated in the article : "Thinkers within the AKP — notably former Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu — harbored reservations about the compatibility of Western political and social institutions with their predominantly Muslim society. But the AKP leadership never acted upon this idea, choosing instead to undermine aspects of Ataturk’s legacy within the framework of the republic. That is no longer the case." The fact that not a single muslim country can be called a democracy does raise some question about the religion itself and its current set of values.
- Certhas 9y ago
  The downvotes are due to the ignorance and prejudice implicit in the comment. The AKP is an Islamic party and we've been discussing it's threat to secularism and democracy in Turkey vigorously for many years. The supposed (self-)censorship of which you speak doesn't exist. For the record, elections are coming up in Indonesia, the largest muslim country. And yes conservative Islam and Islamism are a threat to democracy in many democratic Muslim countries. Which is why it is opposed by moderate democratic muslims (like the 49% that voted no in Turkey). https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/17/world/asia/jakarta-election-purnama-ahok-basuki.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/17/world/asia/jakarta-electi...
- tim333 9y ago
  Wikipedia has Indonesia as one. "As of 2012, Indonesia is the only Muslim-majority nation acknowledged as fully democratic by both Freedom House and Economist democracy indexes."

by ythn 9y ago

I don't want to start any flamewars, but how much responsibility does Islam have in this development? Are there any Islam-majority countries whose governments aren't garbage?

hashkb 9y ago

> I don't want to start any flamewars Really? I'd have chosen different words, or none at all.

xeromal 9y ago

I believe Azerbaijan not only is not a dictatorship, but is also a secular government. Iran isn't a dictatorship. I'm sure there are more, but these are off the top of my head.

zip1234 9y ago
"Iran isn't a dictatorship." - The 'Supreme Leader' begs to differ. "The armed forces, judicial system, state television, and other key governmental organizations are under the control of the Supreme Leader of Iran." To be clear, Iran is not totalitarian, but definitely shades of dictatorship.
cm2187 9y ago
There are other democracies. Tunisia. Indonesia. There are also free elections in Morocco even if the king has a strong power. But pretty much every muslim country has to deal with a rising, if not dominant islamism in its various forms (of which AKP is one). It really feels like a repeat of communism. The rise of an ideology across the world. It's not an homogeneous block. Various muslim ethnic groups hate each others, as did the Maoists, Stalinists, Trotskyist, etc. It happens pretty much everywhere there is a muslim population. Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Lybia, Egypt, Yemen, Somalia / Eritrea, Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Indonesia, etc. Western leaders like to pretend that islamists are a minority of extremist groups but the reality is that pretty much anytime there has been a free-ish election in any of these countries, the islamists toped the polls, or got an outright majority. I think it will get worse before it gets better.
- guftagu 9y ago
  When was the last time Pakistan elected an Islamist government? The last PPP government was pretty secular and the current one is also in the middle if not purely secular. The only time a truly Islamist government was formed in Pakistan was when US puppet dictator Zia ul Haq took over to fight the commies in Afghanistan. Pakistan has many different Islamist parties but they struggle to get even a handful of seats.
Atropos 9y ago
The Economist's democracy index disagrees, putting Azerbaijan into the "Authoritarian" index. And apprently their President is in power since 2003, which is usually not a good sign. Iran certainly cannot be called a full democracy, the religious council has to approve candidacies for President - it isn't even clear if the current President Rouhani can pose as a candidate! But there are some Muslim democracies working better, like Indonesia and Malaysia.

alextheparrot 9y ago

While your comment wasn't necessarily constructive in general, I'd ask you to consider that it is possible Islam can be used as a tool by "garbage" governments as a means of cementing their power.

rjtavares 9y ago
Just like Christianity was in previous centuries.
- _jal 9y ago
  > Just like Christianity is in North Carolina today. FIFY
  - jbmorgado 9y ago
    North Carolina that place where the tribal leaders frequently condemn to death by stoning of by being burned alive woman that don't cover their head or that engage in any contact with some non family related male before marriage without any impedance from national or local government? Or that North Carolina where homosexual people are flogged and hung if they repeat their "crime"? Or North Carolina where if you declare yourself an atheist or join another religion your own father and brothers will cut your throat? Oh, wait, nope, none of that actually happens in North Carolina and you comparing Islamic countries ruled by Sharia with North Carolina to try and tell people that Christian majority countries are just as bad is just some absolutely nonsensical hyperbole.
eveningcoffee 9y ago
Not only Islam but also other religions can be used as a tool. Putin is investing heavily in Russian Orthodox, in Poland Catholicism can be used as such tool (and to my understanding has been already used).
- Freak_NL 9y ago
  Buddhism in Myanmar comes to mind as well, where Muslims are the oppressed party. And Judaism in Israel of course. Religion has always been a useful tool to control a populace — the more orthodox or fundamentalist the better; useful if you want to create a national identity from the ground up. Isn't the hallmark of a healthy democracy a strict separation of church and state, regardless of the religion concerned?

mozumder 9y ago

Same garbage isolationism is happening in US, Philippines, UK, India, etc.. None of these countries are Muslim majority. This is all a reaction to changing times, with globalization a key driver in loss of status. Some cultures can handle it, some can't.

makmanalp 9y ago

This doesn't have much to do with Islam as much as just a mishmash of ultra-nationalism / pseudo-populism / authoritarianism. It's the same class of rules like Putin, Chavez, Trump. Usually these start with a group of people who are ignored in one way or another, or aren't in the good situation that they once were, but then a viable leader comes and speaks to their worries, and promises a better future. This leader represents some kind of identity characteristic that has been shunned in that society (islamist / not politically correct / strongman authoritarian / xenophobe), which draws the ire of everyone else and is criticized heavily in the media. This adds to their popularity among their supporters, overall polarization, and the collapse of sane political discourse, which gives them a better chance. Then it's all about "give them a chance", and after they get elected, sooner or later, they turn authoritarian when things get tough. They blame foreign countries for every problem they have, etc. Eventually they remove the separation of power, replace powerful government positions with their own people, solidify support among their base, and change laws to make competition harder. It happens so often that I get tired of seeing it over and over.

anthonybsd 9y ago
I think when 99% of the country is Muslim, your position is not very defensible. You talk about finding "a group of people who are ignored in one way or another". It just so happens that in Turkey this group of people is composed of rural dwellers and their chief concern is to force the urban women to cover up and to squash all of the urban dwelling infidels. This is the identity characteristic that Erdogan embraced, and to claim that Islam doesn't have much to do with it is misleading at best.

Certhas 9y ago

THe three largest Muslim majority countries are Indonesia, Paksitan and Bangladesh. Bangladesh has been ruled by a woman (a long running rivalry between Sheikh Hasina and Khaleda Zia) since 1991 pretty much continuously. All three have secular, and at least nominally democratic governments. Not without their problems, far from it. There are many reasons for these, domestic, colonial, Islamic neihbours, etc... but I think your comment betrays an extremely superficial view of the world.

bsaul 9y ago

Your comment being downvoted is just a symptom of how impossible discussion about islam religion has become, even in the west. What you're asking is exactly what the AKP party has been trying to answer in its own way, as stated in the article : "Thinkers within the AKP — notably former Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu — harbored reservations about the compatibility of Western political and social institutions with their predominantly Muslim society. But the AKP leadership never acted upon this idea, choosing instead to undermine aspects of Ataturk’s legacy within the framework of the republic. That is no longer the case." The fact that not a single muslim country can be called a democracy does raise some question about the religion itself and its current set of values.

Certhas 9y ago
The downvotes are due to the ignorance and prejudice implicit in the comment. The AKP is an Islamic party and we've been discussing it's threat to secularism and democracy in Turkey vigorously for many years. The supposed (self-)censorship of which you speak doesn't exist. For the record, elections are coming up in Indonesia, the largest muslim country. And yes conservative Islam and Islamism are a threat to democracy in many democratic Muslim countries. Which is why it is opposed by moderate democratic muslims (like the 49% that voted no in Turkey). https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/17/world/asia/jakarta-election-purnama-ahok-basuki.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/17/world/asia/jakarta-electi...
tim333 9y ago
Wikipedia has Indonesia as one. "As of 2012, Indonesia is the only Muslim-majority nation acknowledged as fully democratic by both Freedom House and Economist democracy indexes."