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Regarding universal basic income, Sam says we need to study what happens when people have no jobs: > no matter how much people complain about their jobs, they

by bambax 10y ago

Regarding universal basic income, Sam says we need to study what happens when people have no jobs: > no matter how much people complain about their jobs, they like having somewhere to go everyday, they like having colleagues, like having a sense of mission in their lives (As an aside, this statement, oft repeated, always struck me as weird because the one thing I've always not wanted to do was "having somewhere to go everyday".) But there are a lot of people who don't have a job, have revenue, and seem extremely happy and fulfilled: the retirees. In developed countries people retire around 60, and then go on to live 25 more years on average [1]. The least we could do if we want to study what happens when people have no jobs, would be to study them? [1] http://www.helpage.org/global-agewatch/population-ageing-data/life-expectancy-at-60/ http://www.helpage.org/global-agewatch/population-ageing-dat...

paganel 10y ago
> they like having colleagues Even though there's nothing stopping me from telecommuting instead of going to the office almost every day the thought of being alone in the house almost all day, 5 days per week, working, scares the s*it out of me. Having someone to whom you can talk during coffee breaks or whom you can see just in front of you while you're working is extremely valuable for my mental well-being. And no, SO and family don't count, I don't like mixing work with private life. We are social beings.
- borplk 10y ago
  I'm 100% the opposite. Have been working alone from home and couldn't be happier. I don't want to chit chat or have anyone in front of me.
louithethrid 10y ago
To be honest retirees make for a bad example. They have unpaid jobs, usually engaging with other retirees in a hobby, a community service or endless doctor visits. And those who dont - die really fast from bad lifestyle choices resulting from doing nothing. So bad example.
- ck425 10y ago
  I think that's a really good example of what Sam was talking about. This is becoming more of an issue as more of our communities move to being primarily online.
- bambax 10y ago
  How is it a bad example? A bad example of what? We're looking for examples of people not having to work for money and see how they cope / thrive; instead of trying to create those conditions from scratch we can start by studying people who are already in that situation.
- inimino 10y ago
  It's pretty telling that you can only express "they find things to do with their time" as "they have unpaid jobs". Yes, people find things to do with their time besides vegetate in front of the television. No, those things are not "unpaid jobs". Talk about question begging!
factsaresacred 10y ago
> we need to study what happens when people have no jobs. Take a look at Europe, with it's high youth unemployment and generous social system. Without a job people are the same, they just have more time in the day. Much of this time is spent consuming, socializing, raising a family and creating. The idea that a person needs (outside of financial necessity) a job is absurd. A sense of mission is attractive, but the best missions in life certainly don't involve commuting to a cubicle each day.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
bbctol 10y ago
Yeah, this concept that people like having a "sense of mission in their lives" that only a job can fill is such insidious nonsense I lose respect for anyone who repeats it. It's true that people prefer jobs to handouts, and that retirees are different from people collecting benefits. You know why people like having jobs? Because they want to have control over their lives. It's not about the joy of work or finding a convenient way to meet people for actual ordinary people, it's about knowing that the money in your bank account came from something you did, and it isn't going to go away. People don't want to be at the mercy of some faraway bureaucracy, they want to be paid for their own labor and save their own money. If you implemented a UBI system and then forced everyone to head to the labor camps, this wouldn't make them any happier; it's not about the work, it's about who they perceive as in control. Honestly, this is the reason (as much as certain parts of the SV or HN set recoil at the thought) that it's important to have diversity across class, culture, race, and gender at these sort of discussions about broad social policy. Of course Sam Altman can jet over to the Family and say "You know, people like having to go to work every day." It's such a hilariously out-of-touch thing to even suggest I can no longer take his ideas seriously. When the first things that come into your mind when you think of a job are "having a sense of mission in your life" and "going to the office to see your cool, fun colleagues" you are too far removed from the daily reality of everyone outside your bubble to make remotely reasonable suggestions on large economic reform.
- toyg 10y ago
  SV tycoons are like late-1800s "enlightened" industrialists, proud of building model factory-towns for the masses. Sure, they are improving their workers' immediate wellbeing, but the philanthropic facade is a malicious play at worst, and a misguided effort at best. Just pay all your goddamn taxes, redistribute your wealth unconditionally, and let people have freedom over their own lives.
deleted 10y ago
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by bambax 10y ago

paganel 10y ago

> they like having colleagues Even though there's nothing stopping me from telecommuting instead of going to the office almost every day the thought of being alone in the house almost all day, 5 days per week, working, scares the s*it out of me. Having someone to whom you can talk during coffee breaks or whom you can see just in front of you while you're working is extremely valuable for my mental well-being. And no, SO and family don't count, I don't like mixing work with private life. We are social beings.

borplk 10y ago
I'm 100% the opposite. Have been working alone from home and couldn't be happier. I don't want to chit chat or have anyone in front of me.

louithethrid 10y ago

To be honest retirees make for a bad example. They have unpaid jobs, usually engaging with other retirees in a hobby, a community service or endless doctor visits. And those who dont - die really fast from bad lifestyle choices resulting from doing nothing. So bad example.

ck425 10y ago
I think that's a really good example of what Sam was talking about. This is becoming more of an issue as more of our communities move to being primarily online.
bambax 10y ago
How is it a bad example? A bad example of what? We're looking for examples of people not having to work for money and see how they cope / thrive; instead of trying to create those conditions from scratch we can start by studying people who are already in that situation.
inimino 10y ago
It's pretty telling that you can only express "they find things to do with their time" as "they have unpaid jobs". Yes, people find things to do with their time besides vegetate in front of the television. No, those things are not "unpaid jobs". Talk about question begging!

factsaresacred 10y ago

> we need to study what happens when people have no jobs. Take a look at Europe, with it's high youth unemployment and generous social system. Without a job people are the same, they just have more time in the day. Much of this time is spent consuming, socializing, raising a family and creating. The idea that a person needs (outside of financial necessity) a job is absurd. A sense of mission is attractive, but the best missions in life certainly don't involve commuting to a cubicle each day.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

bbctol 10y ago

Yeah, this concept that people like having a "sense of mission in their lives" that only a job can fill is such insidious nonsense I lose respect for anyone who repeats it. It's true that people prefer jobs to handouts, and that retirees are different from people collecting benefits. You know why people like having jobs? Because they want to have control over their lives. It's not about the joy of work or finding a convenient way to meet people for actual ordinary people, it's about knowing that the money in your bank account came from something you did, and it isn't going to go away. People don't want to be at the mercy of some faraway bureaucracy, they want to be paid for their own labor and save their own money. If you implemented a UBI system and then forced everyone to head to the labor camps, this wouldn't make them any happier; it's not about the work, it's about who they perceive as in control. Honestly, this is the reason (as much as certain parts of the SV or HN set recoil at the thought) that it's important to have diversity across class, culture, race, and gender at these sort of discussions about broad social policy. Of course Sam Altman can jet over to the Family and say "You know, people like having to go to work every day." It's such a hilariously out-of-touch thing to even suggest I can no longer take his ideas seriously. When the first things that come into your mind when you think of a job are "having a sense of mission in your life" and "going to the office to see your cool, fun colleagues" you are too far removed from the daily reality of everyone outside your bubble to make remotely reasonable suggestions on large economic reform.

toyg 10y ago
SV tycoons are like late-1800s "enlightened" industrialists, proud of building model factory-towns for the masses. Sure, they are improving their workers' immediate wellbeing, but the philanthropic facade is a malicious play at worst, and a misguided effort at best. Just pay all your goddamn taxes, redistribute your wealth unconditionally, and let people have freedom over their own lives.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]