I agree that it's reasonable in theory to have some of this stuff going on. I also agree that it's reasonable in theory to do incidental collection. But the p

I agree that it's reasonable in theory to have some of this stuff going on. I also agree that it's reasonable in theory to do incidental collection. But the problem is that the NSA began doing a lot of this stuff without democratic oversight, and officials lied to the American people about it. The deception and lack of democratic oversight makes the programs not OK. The secrecy and lack of auditability create way too much potential for abuse. The intelligence services would never tolerate a system that offered a complete, unalterable log of all surveillance so that courts could decide in hindsight if agents needed jail time for breach of protocol or inappropriate use of the tools. So instead we get this utterly backward system where there is great ceremony around the FISA warrants which are issued (and once in a while denied) but meanwhile any agent in the midst of an investigation can easily enough cast the net over whomever he/she chooses using incidental collection. Police states are bad/dangerous because they make it possible for the regime to intimidate and persecute political enemies. We've seen so many hints of this lately that I'm shocked anyone can support continuing the status quo.