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Country spy on each other is a couple steps down from what the NSA does. > How about assassinating people you don't like on a foreign countries soil? The US i

Country spy on each other is a couple steps down from what the NSA does. > How about assassinating people you don't like on a foreign countries soil? The US is famous for being a champion in this category, France under its current president also competes for appearing in the high score table, Israel is known for this too. But the US still wins because on top of the secret assassination programs and drones, contraction mercenaries to do the killing, financing local dissident to do the killings, it also invades countries and makes war which it's pretty much the only one doing, even north korea doesn't do that, maybe because they cannot afford the multi trillions of military spending the US does.

phil21 10y ago
> Country spy on each other is a couple steps down from what the NSA does You don't get to call someone out for being better than you at the game. I mean really this is your argument? Everyone does it, but the NSA is so much better only they are somehow immoral but everyone else is ok? I just cannot wrap my head around that argument. If a spy agency exists, it's job is to spy. Why would anyone be surprised or upset to find out... they did their job?
- fulafel 10y ago
  I think this is the line of thinking that puts off western non-US citizens about the American espionage machine. The shadow state is ingrained in people's minds as a given, and is not seen a tool that democratically elected leaders wield and control. In addition being orders of magnitude better resourced than other countries' spy agencies, the US intelligence machine don't seem to be politically restrained by the traditional spook moderators of popular support or respect for other countries' sovereignity. You can think that German spooks don't listen to Trump's phone calls because they have less resources and possibly competence, but that's because the politicians and voters choose to rein them in.
  - phil21 10y ago
    > You can think that German spooks don't listen to Trump's phone calls because they have less resources and possibly competence, but that's because the politicians and voters choose to rein them in. This is a great point. I think it actually says what I meant far better. The US created and funded these organizations. As a US citizen them doing their jobs (foreign intelligence gathering) is exactly what I expect of them. I also am vehemently opposed to their vast budgets and power. It would be nice to "reign them in" by vastly reducing their resources, but there doesn't seem to be much political willpower for that. I firmly think that in your example, it's simple resource starvation - not due to lack of willpower or competence to do so. I think the data sharing (and other similar things) agreements the CIA/NSA uses is absolutely problematic, as it's an obvious end-around the constitution and should have been slapped down hard. Once these details came out the agency should have been shut down.
shouldbworking 10y ago
I want to avoid getting into a political spat on HN, but I think that reinforces my point that everybody is spying on and sabotaging each other regularly. We're obviously on different ends of the political sphere but I try not to be too judgemental about it because I'm well aware that there's propaganda on all sides. That said, a lot of US citizens, especially the flavor you find on HN are not big fans of the NSA either.

phil21 10y ago

> Country spy on each other is a couple steps down from what the NSA does You don't get to call someone out for being better than you at the game. I mean really this is your argument? Everyone does it, but the NSA is so much better only they are somehow immoral but everyone else is ok? I just cannot wrap my head around that argument. If a spy agency exists, it's job is to spy. Why would anyone be surprised or upset to find out... they did their job?

fulafel 10y ago
I think this is the line of thinking that puts off western non-US citizens about the American espionage machine. The shadow state is ingrained in people's minds as a given, and is not seen a tool that democratically elected leaders wield and control. In addition being orders of magnitude better resourced than other countries' spy agencies, the US intelligence machine don't seem to be politically restrained by the traditional spook moderators of popular support or respect for other countries' sovereignity. You can think that German spooks don't listen to Trump's phone calls because they have less resources and possibly competence, but that's because the politicians and voters choose to rein them in.
- phil21 10y ago
  > You can think that German spooks don't listen to Trump's phone calls because they have less resources and possibly competence, but that's because the politicians and voters choose to rein them in. This is a great point. I think it actually says what I meant far better. The US created and funded these organizations. As a US citizen them doing their jobs (foreign intelligence gathering) is exactly what I expect of them. I also am vehemently opposed to their vast budgets and power. It would be nice to "reign them in" by vastly reducing their resources, but there doesn't seem to be much political willpower for that. I firmly think that in your example, it's simple resource starvation - not due to lack of willpower or competence to do so. I think the data sharing (and other similar things) agreements the CIA/NSA uses is absolutely problematic, as it's an obvious end-around the constitution and should have been slapped down hard. Once these details came out the agency should have been shut down.

shouldbworking 10y ago

I want to avoid getting into a political spat on HN, but I think that reinforces my point that everybody is spying on and sabotaging each other regularly. We're obviously on different ends of the political sphere but I try not to be too judgemental about it because I'm well aware that there's propaganda on all sides. That said, a lot of US citizens, especially the flavor you find on HN are not big fans of the NSA either.