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So it's okay as long as NSA is spying on citizens of other countries, but you're up in arms if they spy on US citizens?

tomschlick 10y ago
Yes. Because that is exactly their purpose. To gain SIGINT on others. Every major nation does this kind of thing to each other to keep the others in check. Trust but verify.
- bigbugbag 10y ago
  How many US sockpuppets parroting the same baseless argument are there in these HN comments ? UK and US intelligence have a bilateral agreement to spy on each other population and swap the collected data as a workaround of national law forbidding them to do so. This single fact shows that those agencies go the extra mile to do things out of their supposed purpose, that agencies are not in check by their respective government and that not every major nation is SIGINTing each other. The reality is that intelligence agencies have a motto along the lines of "we can do anything we want in any way we want as long we don't get caught".
  - willstrafach 10y ago
    > workaround of national law forbidding them to do so Citizen data is still minimized, regardless of who collected it. There has never been evidence of this often-repeated "workaround" theory.
    - ionised 10y ago
      > There has never been evidence of this often-repeated "workaround" theory. I mean, it was pretty clear from the Snowden leaks that this is what was happening.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
phil21 10y ago
Yup. That's literally the only reason the NSA (and CIA) exists. If they are spying on US citizens (which has been proven) then that's a huge issue. Since it's unconstitutional. Spying on foreign powers? That's part of the game. Every single country is doing it to the US, and I see absolutely no moral issue being better than them at it.
- 3131s 10y ago
  So your argument is essentially, "we created those agencies for that purpose, therefore it's ok what they're doing". You don't see how that doesn't actually follow? > Spying on foreign powers Foreign governments would be one thing (IMO still probably wrong, especially so if it's an ally), but US agencies are spying on all foreign citizens. > Every single country is doing it to the US Yeah, source please. And scale matters.
  - bigbugbag 10y ago
    >> Every single country is doing it to the US >Yeah, source please. And scale matters. I've seen the argument parroted around in the comments but it makes no sense. Bangladesh, Tanzania, Namibia, Laos, Cyprus, Rwanda, Haïti, Somalia just to name a few of the many who lack the resources to spy on a foreign superpower and have other more important priorities to deal with. Somehow they also fail to understand that CIA and NSA were created in a specific historical (post-WW2 / cold war) context that has now expired. They have outlived their initial purposes and found other ways to justify their existences and budget since.

Yes. Because that is exactly their purpose. To gain SIGINT on others. Every major nation does this kind of thing to each other to keep the others in check. Trust but verify.

bigbugbag 10y ago
How many US sockpuppets parroting the same baseless argument are there in these HN comments ? UK and US intelligence have a bilateral agreement to spy on each other population and swap the collected data as a workaround of national law forbidding them to do so. This single fact shows that those agencies go the extra mile to do things out of their supposed purpose, that agencies are not in check by their respective government and that not every major nation is SIGINTing each other. The reality is that intelligence agencies have a motto along the lines of "we can do anything we want in any way we want as long we don't get caught".
- willstrafach 10y ago
  > workaround of national law forbidding them to do so Citizen data is still minimized, regardless of who collected it. There has never been evidence of this often-repeated "workaround" theory.
  - ionised 10y ago
    > There has never been evidence of this often-repeated "workaround" theory. I mean, it was pretty clear from the Snowden leaks that this is what was happening.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

phil21 10y ago

Yup. That's literally the only reason the NSA (and CIA) exists. If they are spying on US citizens (which has been proven) then that's a huge issue. Since it's unconstitutional. Spying on foreign powers? That's part of the game. Every single country is doing it to the US, and I see absolutely no moral issue being better than them at it.

3131s 10y ago
So your argument is essentially, "we created those agencies for that purpose, therefore it's ok what they're doing". You don't see how that doesn't actually follow? > Spying on foreign powers Foreign governments would be one thing (IMO still probably wrong, especially so if it's an ally), but US agencies are spying on all foreign citizens. > Every single country is doing it to the US Yeah, source please. And scale matters.
- bigbugbag 10y ago
  >> Every single country is doing it to the US >Yeah, source please. And scale matters. I've seen the argument parroted around in the comments but it makes no sense. Bangladesh, Tanzania, Namibia, Laos, Cyprus, Rwanda, Haïti, Somalia just to name a few of the many who lack the resources to spy on a foreign superpower and have other more important priorities to deal with. Somehow they also fail to understand that CIA and NSA were created in a specific historical (post-WW2 / cold war) context that has now expired. They have outlived their initial purposes and found other ways to justify their existences and budget since.