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What's so special about American citizens that makes you think they are not to be spied by NSA? Why is it that eg. Europeans can be spied at will, but it takes

What's so special about American citizens that makes you think they are not to be spied by NSA? Why is it that eg. Europeans can be spied at will, but it takes a mandate to spy an American citizen?

phil21 9y ago
Because it's the NSA? And it's an American agency? I really don't understand why this is a difficult concept for people to understand. I pretty much assume MI6 is spying on me as well, but I don't care - because they don't have jurisdiction over me. The NSA or CIA spying on me? That's an entirely different story. It's incredibly naive to think nation states will not spy on each other - allied or not. Alliances change on a whim, if you have a spy agency it'd be criminally negligent not to spy on your allies. When that intelligence is redirected and used to control internal politics? Now it's a problem.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- bigbugbag 9y ago
  You don't have to assume the UK agencies are spying on you, you should know that they do because they do it for the NSA in return for the NSA spying on UK citizen as a work around national laws forbidding them doing so. In Europe this agreement is famously known since at least Echelon and Carnivore times, maybe even before that. Has been reported in the newspapers and proven by Snowden documents. Along with the NSA unilaterally breaking the no spying agreement with the UK.
  - phil21 9y ago
    > they do it for the NSA in return for the NSA spying on UK citizen as a work around national laws forbidding them doing so. Absolutely, and this is highly problematic. If it was British intelligence hoovering up my info and using it for their own government use I wouldn't see a problem with it. Or rather, I wouldn't see it nearly as much of a problem as an American agency doing it to me. Them sharing that data with the US is where I have an extreme problem with it. It's an obvious end-around the constitution. This is where US agencies can now use that data to put US citizens under their jurisdiction into prison. That is unacceptable. I think a lot of my posts last night come off as me defending the NSA/CIA but that support is limited to a very narrow mission. Intelligence gathering on foreign powers. > Along with the NSA unilaterally breaking the no spying agreement with the UK. Meh. Those agreements are political grandstanding and nothing else, all participants understand that fact. No one actually believes the US and UK will not spy on each other as much as possible.
  - GcVmvNhBsU 9y ago
    Incorrect. NSA cannot request GCHQ to (illegally) spy on you. If the NSA acquires legal grounds to surveil you, such as through the FISC, they may. Although, given that a US citizen is much more likely to use US based service providers, they would likely work with the FBI to obtain your communications than go overseas. http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/524001r.pdf http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/524001r.pdf > C1.1.4. DoD intelligence components shall not request any person or entity to undertake any activity forbidden by Executive Order 12333 (reference (a)). Similarly, GCHQ cannot ask NSA to illegally spy on you. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/23/section/1 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/23/section/1 > it shall be the duty of the Secretary of State to secure that no request for assistance in accordance with the agreement is made on behalf of a person in the United Kingdom to the competent authorities of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom except with lawful authority. And of course you may assume that such agencies violate these governances, but that would show a lack of understanding of the bureaucratic nature of such agencies.
    - ionised 9y ago
      > Similarly, GCHQ cannot ask NSA to illegally spy on you. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/23/section/1 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/23/section/1 As of this past year, GCHQ are allowed to spy on whomever they want, wherever they want, however they want (including hacking and the use of malware). This includes British citizens and MPs. They don't need the NSA for this anymore.

What's so special about American citizens that makes you think they are not to be spied by NSA? Why is it that eg. Europeans can be spied at will, but it takes a mandate to spy an American citizen?

phil21 9y ago

Because it's the NSA? And it's an American agency? I really don't understand why this is a difficult concept for people to understand. I pretty much assume MI6 is spying on me as well, but I don't care - because they don't have jurisdiction over me. The NSA or CIA spying on me? That's an entirely different story. It's incredibly naive to think nation states will not spy on each other - allied or not. Alliances change on a whim, if you have a spy agency it'd be criminally negligent not to spy on your allies. When that intelligence is redirected and used to control internal politics? Now it's a problem.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
bigbugbag 9y ago
You don't have to assume the UK agencies are spying on you, you should know that they do because they do it for the NSA in return for the NSA spying on UK citizen as a work around national laws forbidding them doing so. In Europe this agreement is famously known since at least Echelon and Carnivore times, maybe even before that. Has been reported in the newspapers and proven by Snowden documents. Along with the NSA unilaterally breaking the no spying agreement with the UK.
- phil21 9y ago
  > they do it for the NSA in return for the NSA spying on UK citizen as a work around national laws forbidding them doing so. Absolutely, and this is highly problematic. If it was British intelligence hoovering up my info and using it for their own government use I wouldn't see a problem with it. Or rather, I wouldn't see it nearly as much of a problem as an American agency doing it to me. Them sharing that data with the US is where I have an extreme problem with it. It's an obvious end-around the constitution. This is where US agencies can now use that data to put US citizens under their jurisdiction into prison. That is unacceptable. I think a lot of my posts last night come off as me defending the NSA/CIA but that support is limited to a very narrow mission. Intelligence gathering on foreign powers. > Along with the NSA unilaterally breaking the no spying agreement with the UK. Meh. Those agreements are political grandstanding and nothing else, all participants understand that fact. No one actually believes the US and UK will not spy on each other as much as possible.
- GcVmvNhBsU 9y ago
  Incorrect. NSA cannot request GCHQ to (illegally) spy on you. If the NSA acquires legal grounds to surveil you, such as through the FISC, they may. Although, given that a US citizen is much more likely to use US based service providers, they would likely work with the FBI to obtain your communications than go overseas. http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/524001r.pdf http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/524001r.pdf > C1.1.4. DoD intelligence components shall not request any person or entity to undertake any activity forbidden by Executive Order 12333 (reference (a)). Similarly, GCHQ cannot ask NSA to illegally spy on you. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/23/section/1 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/23/section/1 > it shall be the duty of the Secretary of State to secure that no request for assistance in accordance with the agreement is made on behalf of a person in the United Kingdom to the competent authorities of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom except with lawful authority. And of course you may assume that such agencies violate these governances, but that would show a lack of understanding of the bureaucratic nature of such agencies.
  - ionised 9y ago
    > Similarly, GCHQ cannot ask NSA to illegally spy on you. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/23/section/1 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/23/section/1 As of this past year, GCHQ are allowed to spy on whomever they want, wherever they want, however they want (including hacking and the use of malware). This includes British citizens and MPs. They don't need the NSA for this anymore.