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> Kids are society's problem Respectfully, I'm sad for children whose parents think society is going to look out for them. Every kid deserves a couple of peop

> Kids are society's problem Respectfully, I'm sad for children whose parents think society is going to look out for them. Every kid deserves a couple of people who take personal responsibility for their behavior and well-being. I have a pretty high tolerance for kids being bouncy and boisterous, but it's always nice to see parents giving the sort of information that helps them become considerate:("Look, that woman's trying to read. She wants it quiet!" -or- "That lamp could break - can you find a safer place to bounce your ball?") Another big issue that isn't always mentioned is diet. A kid who eats a "normal" amount of sugar, corn syrup, and zero-nutrient high-carb products will understandably be going berserk on the outside because they're on a blood sugar roller coaster on the inside. As an alternative perspective, I think that in France "kids are society's problem" doesn't mean building special places where they can run rampant, but training them to appreciate the culture and society they're inheriting. French kindergarteners spend 90 minutes sitting down to a white-table-cloth four course meal each day during school. This is done because it's considered essential for them to learn the table manners and appreciation of the cuisine that will allow them a lifetime of enjoyable, civilized dining. (I think the creation of lots of "good", dignified jobs in the kindergarten-chef field is a wonderful side benefit, as opposed to cafeteria workers in the US who can hardly feel fulfilled while dumping bags of frozen nuggets onto trays.)

sgustard 9y ago
Teaching kids to sit for a 90-minute fancy meal sounds like the height of aristocratic folly. Didn't the French Revolution stamp this out? I'd be in favor of my kids learning to cook such a meal, though.
pcarolan 9y ago
I wasn't making the point that society was in charge of my kids, rather that society needs to be tolerant of kids nature and adapt to it to some degree. I can get my kid to sit still, but its not his natural state so I don't often do it. I am glad that there are places you can take your kid to join and indoctrinate them into cultures you want to identify with. I am glad there are options. I would not choose french civility. I would probably more want my kid to eat a big burger with his hands and get ketchup all over his face at an outdoor bbq. God bless choices.
- 59nadir 9y ago
  I don't think other people should necessarily have to accept that you prefer not to keep your child reasonably quiet, as an example, in public. Understanding that kids will be kids doesn't mean understanding that you as a parent prefer not to teach your kid how to act in public. It might seem harsh, but you really do paint the image of someone who thinks it's fine for his kid to keep screaming and running around in public, and having people just accept that that's how it is. I don't know how it is where you live, but neither in my home country or the country I live in now would this be considered fine for a parent to think. In my home country I think the general sentiment would be "At least have the decency to be ashamed of your performance as a parent" and a little bit less harsh where I am now. You can think the above cultural sentiment is harsh, but it's a culture based on valuing the collective very highly and respecting it more than you value even yourself.
  - zaptheimpaler 9y ago
    Sometimes, the majority is wrong. There are many kids who might be hyperactive due to a quirk of their mind/body - say ADHD or a hyper fast metabolism. People don't see these things and expect kids who are really different to be the same as the rest. For that kind of a kid, the value tradeoff between keeping still and not disturbing anyone else vs. not can be very different if they cannot express themselves. Society ROUTINELY throws minorities under the bus because we have simply accepted that a small inconvenience for a majority could not possibly be worth paying if it helps a few people a lot. I think the cultural sentiment you're talking about is really just "agree with everyone else, or else risk exclusion" - the usual extortion. The same reasoning can justify much worse things. Humans are very social and children are partly raised by the society around them - people deny it because they don't want to have to change. Just to be clear, I'm really against this because the parent said he can keep his child still, but its not the child's natural state. And you go and call him a "bad parent" for not stifling his kid. Bullshit.
    - 59nadir 9y ago
      > the parent said he can keep his child still, but its not the child's natural state. The child can be in its natural state in the privacy of their own home, not in public where it's a bother for everyone else. If we were talking about a child with real issues that could be blamed on disorders, it wouldn't just be about "natural state" and whatnot, and as you say the parent is able to keep the child quiet, proving it's just him preferring to not be considerate to his environment. > And you go and call him a "bad parent" for not stifling his kid. Bullshit. Screaming and running around in public doesn't foster any desirable or productive behavior on the part of the child, as far as I can imagine. I don't think it'll ever be in the favor of the child. All it really does is inconvenience people that didn't ask to deal with the noise of the child. Edit: I want to add that I think there's a lot more that goes into being a bad parent, by the way. The only thing this "Society will have to adapt to me" behavior shows is a general lack of respect for other people and putting your convenience before them.
alltakendamned 9y ago
> French kindergarteners spend 90 minutes sitting down to a white-table-cloth four course meal each day during school. No they don't, I'm not quite sure where you could've got the idea ?
- imesh 9y ago
  Why we supposed to copy everything the French do? Aren't they regarded as rude? That implies not being considerate...
  - gommm 9y ago
    In term of perceived rudeness of French people, I think a lot of it is communication barrier (it's better now and it's changing but French people on average suck at speaking English and are self conscious about it) and the fact that Parisians are universally seen by French people as being ever so slightly snobbish and rude.
- postmeta 9y ago
  table-cloth is embellishment, but four-course does seem to be part of the system: https://karenlebillon.com/french-school-lunch-menus/ https://karenlebillon.com/french-school-lunch-menus/
  - ckarmann 9y ago
    Four-course sounds grandiose but it's nothing more than a little carrot salad, a meal, a little piece of cheese and a yogurt (and some bread), that you get on your meal tray. No kid spend 90 minutes eating that; they rather spend their time playing during the time of lunch break. So it's top 20 minutes swallowing everything (or half of it actually) as fast of possible.
  - 77pt77 9y ago
    Is this not standard almost everywhere? If anything, the soup is missing.
- 77pt77 9y ago
greggman 9y ago
The sugar = hyper kids myth has long been debunked. Instead what studies have found is if the parents believe their kids ate sugar they'll believe their kids are hyper even when the kids were actually given a placebo. https://www.google.com/?q=does+sugar+make+kids+hyper https://www.google.com/?q=does+sugar+make+kids+hyper
- VLM 9y ago
  Its not controversial that diabetic behavior is influenced by blood sugar levels. Studies used to exclude diabetic / prediabetic / obese kids because there were not many of them in the 70s before corn syrup. Now of course over 1/5 of kids are obese or whatever definition, so once that legacy exclusion is eliminated...
gommm 9y ago
> French kindergarteners spend 90 minutes sitting down to a white-table-cloth four course meal each day during school. This is done because it's considered essential for them to learn the table manners and appreciation of the cuisine that will allow them a lifetime of enjoyable, civilized dining. I wish that were true... They do get a 3 course meal (appetizer, main dish and desert) but it doesn't last 90 minutes and it's not a white table cloth meal... That's embellishing the reality a little bit. There was more decorum than a self service (we were served the food at the table as a kid in kindergarten in primary school) and the food quality is definitely better than most countries in primary schools* but that's about it. As a kid in kindergarten though we would be told off if we were too boisterous during the meal so I guess that kind of qualifies in term of table manner. That said, I did find that kids in the US tended to be louder and less well educated than I was used to. The same applies for kids in Japan below the age of 5 (parents there have a laissez faire altitude during the early ages). (*) Middle schools and high schools are another story. Lunch is a self service concept (so no one brings the meal to the table) and the quality of lunch is lower (it was downright atrocious when I was in middle school to the point where I would usually skip most lunches). This may have changed though.
- xherberta 9y ago
  I appreciate the correction!

sgustard 9y ago

Teaching kids to sit for a 90-minute fancy meal sounds like the height of aristocratic folly. Didn't the French Revolution stamp this out? I'd be in favor of my kids learning to cook such a meal, though.

pcarolan 9y ago

I wasn't making the point that society was in charge of my kids, rather that society needs to be tolerant of kids nature and adapt to it to some degree. I can get my kid to sit still, but its not his natural state so I don't often do it. I am glad that there are places you can take your kid to join and indoctrinate them into cultures you want to identify with. I am glad there are options. I would not choose french civility. I would probably more want my kid to eat a big burger with his hands and get ketchup all over his face at an outdoor bbq. God bless choices.

59nadir 9y ago
I don't think other people should necessarily have to accept that you prefer not to keep your child reasonably quiet, as an example, in public. Understanding that kids will be kids doesn't mean understanding that you as a parent prefer not to teach your kid how to act in public. It might seem harsh, but you really do paint the image of someone who thinks it's fine for his kid to keep screaming and running around in public, and having people just accept that that's how it is. I don't know how it is where you live, but neither in my home country or the country I live in now would this be considered fine for a parent to think. In my home country I think the general sentiment would be "At least have the decency to be ashamed of your performance as a parent" and a little bit less harsh where I am now. You can think the above cultural sentiment is harsh, but it's a culture based on valuing the collective very highly and respecting it more than you value even yourself.
- zaptheimpaler 9y ago
  Sometimes, the majority is wrong. There are many kids who might be hyperactive due to a quirk of their mind/body - say ADHD or a hyper fast metabolism. People don't see these things and expect kids who are really different to be the same as the rest. For that kind of a kid, the value tradeoff between keeping still and not disturbing anyone else vs. not can be very different if they cannot express themselves. Society ROUTINELY throws minorities under the bus because we have simply accepted that a small inconvenience for a majority could not possibly be worth paying if it helps a few people a lot. I think the cultural sentiment you're talking about is really just "agree with everyone else, or else risk exclusion" - the usual extortion. The same reasoning can justify much worse things. Humans are very social and children are partly raised by the society around them - people deny it because they don't want to have to change. Just to be clear, I'm really against this because the parent said he can keep his child still, but its not the child's natural state. And you go and call him a "bad parent" for not stifling his kid. Bullshit.
  - 59nadir 9y ago
    > the parent said he can keep his child still, but its not the child's natural state. The child can be in its natural state in the privacy of their own home, not in public where it's a bother for everyone else. If we were talking about a child with real issues that could be blamed on disorders, it wouldn't just be about "natural state" and whatnot, and as you say the parent is able to keep the child quiet, proving it's just him preferring to not be considerate to his environment. > And you go and call him a "bad parent" for not stifling his kid. Bullshit. Screaming and running around in public doesn't foster any desirable or productive behavior on the part of the child, as far as I can imagine. I don't think it'll ever be in the favor of the child. All it really does is inconvenience people that didn't ask to deal with the noise of the child. Edit: I want to add that I think there's a lot more that goes into being a bad parent, by the way. The only thing this "Society will have to adapt to me" behavior shows is a general lack of respect for other people and putting your convenience before them.

alltakendamned 9y ago

> French kindergarteners spend 90 minutes sitting down to a white-table-cloth four course meal each day during school. No they don't, I'm not quite sure where you could've got the idea ?

imesh 9y ago
Why we supposed to copy everything the French do? Aren't they regarded as rude? That implies not being considerate...
- gommm 9y ago
  In term of perceived rudeness of French people, I think a lot of it is communication barrier (it's better now and it's changing but French people on average suck at speaking English and are self conscious about it) and the fact that Parisians are universally seen by French people as being ever so slightly snobbish and rude.
postmeta 9y ago
table-cloth is embellishment, but four-course does seem to be part of the system: https://karenlebillon.com/french-school-lunch-menus/ https://karenlebillon.com/french-school-lunch-menus/
- ckarmann 9y ago
  Four-course sounds grandiose but it's nothing more than a little carrot salad, a meal, a little piece of cheese and a yogurt (and some bread), that you get on your meal tray. No kid spend 90 minutes eating that; they rather spend their time playing during the time of lunch break. So it's top 20 minutes swallowing everything (or half of it actually) as fast of possible.
- 77pt77 9y ago
  Is this not standard almost everywhere? If anything, the soup is missing.
77pt77 9y ago

greggman 9y ago

The sugar = hyper kids myth has long been debunked. Instead what studies have found is if the parents believe their kids ate sugar they'll believe their kids are hyper even when the kids were actually given a placebo. https://www.google.com/?q=does+sugar+make+kids+hyper https://www.google.com/?q=does+sugar+make+kids+hyper

VLM 9y ago
Its not controversial that diabetic behavior is influenced by blood sugar levels. Studies used to exclude diabetic / prediabetic / obese kids because there were not many of them in the 70s before corn syrup. Now of course over 1/5 of kids are obese or whatever definition, so once that legacy exclusion is eliminated...

gommm 9y ago

> French kindergarteners spend 90 minutes sitting down to a white-table-cloth four course meal each day during school. This is done because it's considered essential for them to learn the table manners and appreciation of the cuisine that will allow them a lifetime of enjoyable, civilized dining. I wish that were true... They do get a 3 course meal (appetizer, main dish and desert) but it doesn't last 90 minutes and it's not a white table cloth meal... That's embellishing the reality a little bit. There was more decorum than a self service (we were served the food at the table as a kid in kindergarten in primary school) and the food quality is definitely better than most countries in primary schools* but that's about it. As a kid in kindergarten though we would be told off if we were too boisterous during the meal so I guess that kind of qualifies in term of table manner. That said, I did find that kids in the US tended to be louder and less well educated than I was used to. The same applies for kids in Japan below the age of 5 (parents there have a laissez faire altitude during the early ages). (*) Middle schools and high schools are another story. Lunch is a self service concept (so no one brings the meal to the table) and the quality of lunch is lower (it was downright atrocious when I was in middle school to the point where I would usually skip most lunches). This may have changed though.

xherberta 9y ago
I appreciate the correction!