4 ms·

Any country with satellites spends tons of their time gawking at everyone else's stuff, while maybe occasionally predicting the weather. I think you're really

Any country with satellites spends tons of their time gawking at everyone else's stuff, while maybe occasionally predicting the weather. I think you're really underestimating how much counties spy on each other. Russia stole nuclear secrets from the US and China was recently implicated trying to get plans for US fighter jets. I think stealing military tech is much closer to an act of war than watching people's finances? How about assassinating people you don't like on a foreign countries soil? Because places like North Korea do that stuff regularly. I'm just saying that this isn't even close to the worst stuff that's come out and I think your outrage is a bit much

bigbugbag 9y ago
Country spy on each other is a couple steps down from what the NSA does. > How about assassinating people you don't like on a foreign countries soil? The US is famous for being a champion in this category, France under its current president also competes for appearing in the high score table, Israel is known for this too. But the US still wins because on top of the secret assassination programs and drones, contraction mercenaries to do the killing, financing local dissident to do the killings, it also invades countries and makes war which it's pretty much the only one doing, even north korea doesn't do that, maybe because they cannot afford the multi trillions of military spending the US does.
- phil21 9y ago
  > Country spy on each other is a couple steps down from what the NSA does You don't get to call someone out for being better than you at the game. I mean really this is your argument? Everyone does it, but the NSA is so much better only they are somehow immoral but everyone else is ok? I just cannot wrap my head around that argument. If a spy agency exists, it's job is to spy. Why would anyone be surprised or upset to find out... they did their job?
  - fulafel 9y ago
    I think this is the line of thinking that puts off western non-US citizens about the American espionage machine. The shadow state is ingrained in people's minds as a given, and is not seen a tool that democratically elected leaders wield and control. In addition being orders of magnitude better resourced than other countries' spy agencies, the US intelligence machine don't seem to be politically restrained by the traditional spook moderators of popular support or respect for other countries' sovereignity. You can think that German spooks don't listen to Trump's phone calls because they have less resources and possibly competence, but that's because the politicians and voters choose to rein them in.
    - phil21 9y ago
      > You can think that German spooks don't listen to Trump's phone calls because they have less resources and possibly competence, but that's because the politicians and voters choose to rein them in. This is a great point. I think it actually says what I meant far better. The US created and funded these organizations. As a US citizen them doing their jobs (foreign intelligence gathering) is exactly what I expect of them. I also am vehemently opposed to their vast budgets and power. It would be nice to "reign them in" by vastly reducing their resources, but there doesn't seem to be much political willpower for that. I firmly think that in your example, it's simple resource starvation - not due to lack of willpower or competence to do so. I think the data sharing (and other similar things) agreements the CIA/NSA uses is absolutely problematic, as it's an obvious end-around the constitution and should have been slapped down hard. Once these details came out the agency should have been shut down.
- shouldbworking 9y ago
  I want to avoid getting into a political spat on HN, but I think that reinforces my point that everybody is spying on and sabotaging each other regularly. We're obviously on different ends of the political sphere but I try not to be too judgemental about it because I'm well aware that there's propaganda on all sides. That said, a lot of US citizens, especially the flavor you find on HN are not big fans of the NSA either.
fulafel 9y ago
Sounds like projecting a little too much based on the historical main cold war allies/opponents. How much NSA-style pervasive espionage do you think is done by more conflict averse countries like Netherlands, Australia, Brazil, Singapore, Japan, Ireland, Finland etc? I'm sure everyone keeps some sort of tabs on neighbours, keeps some reasonable counterterrorism watch and trades intelligence with friendly countries and has a counterespionage dept, but probably a far cry from invasive and risky infiltrations like NSA does. It's also practically less attractive to countries that are not superpower aligned: they have much less experience and resources, and diplomatically have more to lose if things go wrong.
- 086421357909764 9y ago
  Australia Is a five eyes country, Lookup Alice Springs, definitely looking at things.
blincoln 9y ago
Imagine if surveillance satellites inherently included the ability to not only view secret airfields and missile silos, but also to sabotage the vehicles/weapons/equipment. That's a whole different world of potential for misuse.

bigbugbag 9y ago

Country spy on each other is a couple steps down from what the NSA does. > How about assassinating people you don't like on a foreign countries soil? The US is famous for being a champion in this category, France under its current president also competes for appearing in the high score table, Israel is known for this too. But the US still wins because on top of the secret assassination programs and drones, contraction mercenaries to do the killing, financing local dissident to do the killings, it also invades countries and makes war which it's pretty much the only one doing, even north korea doesn't do that, maybe because they cannot afford the multi trillions of military spending the US does.

phil21 9y ago
> Country spy on each other is a couple steps down from what the NSA does You don't get to call someone out for being better than you at the game. I mean really this is your argument? Everyone does it, but the NSA is so much better only they are somehow immoral but everyone else is ok? I just cannot wrap my head around that argument. If a spy agency exists, it's job is to spy. Why would anyone be surprised or upset to find out... they did their job?
- fulafel 9y ago
  I think this is the line of thinking that puts off western non-US citizens about the American espionage machine. The shadow state is ingrained in people's minds as a given, and is not seen a tool that democratically elected leaders wield and control. In addition being orders of magnitude better resourced than other countries' spy agencies, the US intelligence machine don't seem to be politically restrained by the traditional spook moderators of popular support or respect for other countries' sovereignity. You can think that German spooks don't listen to Trump's phone calls because they have less resources and possibly competence, but that's because the politicians and voters choose to rein them in.
  - phil21 9y ago
    > You can think that German spooks don't listen to Trump's phone calls because they have less resources and possibly competence, but that's because the politicians and voters choose to rein them in. This is a great point. I think it actually says what I meant far better. The US created and funded these organizations. As a US citizen them doing their jobs (foreign intelligence gathering) is exactly what I expect of them. I also am vehemently opposed to their vast budgets and power. It would be nice to "reign them in" by vastly reducing their resources, but there doesn't seem to be much political willpower for that. I firmly think that in your example, it's simple resource starvation - not due to lack of willpower or competence to do so. I think the data sharing (and other similar things) agreements the CIA/NSA uses is absolutely problematic, as it's an obvious end-around the constitution and should have been slapped down hard. Once these details came out the agency should have been shut down.
shouldbworking 9y ago
I want to avoid getting into a political spat on HN, but I think that reinforces my point that everybody is spying on and sabotaging each other regularly. We're obviously on different ends of the political sphere but I try not to be too judgemental about it because I'm well aware that there's propaganda on all sides. That said, a lot of US citizens, especially the flavor you find on HN are not big fans of the NSA either.

fulafel 9y ago

Sounds like projecting a little too much based on the historical main cold war allies/opponents. How much NSA-style pervasive espionage do you think is done by more conflict averse countries like Netherlands, Australia, Brazil, Singapore, Japan, Ireland, Finland etc? I'm sure everyone keeps some sort of tabs on neighbours, keeps some reasonable counterterrorism watch and trades intelligence with friendly countries and has a counterespionage dept, but probably a far cry from invasive and risky infiltrations like NSA does. It's also practically less attractive to countries that are not superpower aligned: they have much less experience and resources, and diplomatically have more to lose if things go wrong.

086421357909764 9y ago
Australia Is a five eyes country, Lookup Alice Springs, definitely looking at things.

blincoln 9y ago

Imagine if surveillance satellites inherently included the ability to not only view secret airfields and missile silos, but also to sabotage the vehicles/weapons/equipment. That's a whole different world of potential for misuse.