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A lot of the people on HN are not US citizens, and we don't give a fu*k about that distinction. All we see is an intelligence agency of our ally breaking into o

A lot of the people on HN are not US citizens, and we don't give a fu*k about that distinction. All we see is an intelligence agency of our ally breaking into our companies/institutions, siphoning private data and wreaking havoc.

rdxm 9y ago
so two things: 1) yes of course I know about HN demographics 2) you should care about that distinciton because this is true for any nation/state. until such time as we evolve dramtically as a species these types of organizations have a place. it's distasteful perhaps, but a necessary thing. getting emotional about it impedes a rational consideration.
- trendia 9y ago
  Do you think spy agencies should be able to collect data on foreigners? e.g. US can collect foreigners and UK can collect foreigners? Do you think spy agencies should be able to swap data about those foreigners? Because the two in combination allows the UK to spy on US citizens and give it to the US, without the US needing to spy on its citize s
  - rdxm 9y ago
    in response to your first question, yes of course. it's thier job. w.r.t. your second question, this is where things start to get grippy. see my response to another question referencing "realpolitik". in this context, then whether or not they should becomes a secondary consideration at the policy level.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - GauntletWizard 9y ago
    Yes, I think spy agencies should be able to spy on foreigners, and swap data. I don't think it's insane for the laws against collection of citizens data to include not trading for citizens data with foreign powers, such that the set of people that the UK and US spy agencies share data on is the disunion of their respective citizens. As with many things that involve crimes of thought or information, it's very hard to implement, and as such you should be careful how you phrase and prosecute, but that's a risk that has to be taken... And the penalties for when it's discovered should be appropriately severe to make up for that.
- pgaddict 9y ago
  I'm not particularly emotional about this, at least not in the "getting irrational" sense. And I'm not against intelligence agencies in principle, I acknowledge that we need them to some level. The difference is that I come from a country where secret service (both domestic and from other USSR-friendly countries) used to be almost almighty ~25 years ago. And I've seen the damage it inflicted on the society (including some family members) by eliminating any form of dissent or sign of disagreement with the government. Considering how much cheaper and easier dragnet-like surveillance got over the past few years ... well. You may point out this particular case (compromising SWIFT bureau) is different, i.e. it's the type of action you'd expect from NSA-type intelligence agencies. But it's a mistake to see the agencies as independent / isolated entities. The rest of the leak is however interesting as it shows how hoarding of NOBUS 0days fails, because it's never really NOBUS.
shouldbworking 9y ago
If all the leaks in the past decade have shown anything it's that everyone spies on everyone. It's been like that forever too. You can take some solace in knowing your country is almost definitely spying on the US as well. With the internet, I have never been surprised by US govt shenanigans. The internet is largely a product of the US military. It was originally designed for government communications in nuclear war. I say the same when people mention GPS. It's very civilian appearing but make no mistake it's very much connected to military.
- rdxm 9y ago
  +1 edit to add: I re-read this piece by Scneier every now and then.... http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/16/opinion/schneier-internet-surveillance/ http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/16/opinion/schneier-internet-surv...
  - emmelaich 9y ago
    Excellent link. Somewhat similar: NSA's Dan Geer on how we are all intelligence officers now. https://www.theinternetpatrol.com/security-expert-dan-geer-we-are-all-intelligence-officers-now-full-text-here/ https://www.theinternetpatrol.com/security-expert-dan-geer-w...
- terrestrial 9y ago
  > If all the leaks in the past decade have shown anything it's that everyone spies on everyone. It's been like that forever too. It may have been like that for a long time, but it's not entirely true anymore. The leaks show an emergent trend of cooperation between the western intelligence agencies, i.e. the "fourteen eyes". This is the most worrying part IMO. Now you have a small elite sitting on enough power to take out anyone or control pretty much all information on the internet. We laugh at Baidu and Yandex, but if these people want something they'll have it.
- bigbugbag 9y ago
  This "every one is doing it argument" fails to address the difference in scale between the US and the of the world. As if I took a knife and stabbed someone with it, and say well it's not that bad, look those kids over there they fight all the time, see right here the one in shorts here kicked the other one with the baseball cap who's crying. I mean you can't be seriously suggesting that Namibia can engage in spying as the US does, and this is true for the large majority of the countries around the globe.

rdxm 9y ago

so two things: 1) yes of course I know about HN demographics 2) you should care about that distinciton because this is true for any nation/state. until such time as we evolve dramtically as a species these types of organizations have a place. it's distasteful perhaps, but a necessary thing. getting emotional about it impedes a rational consideration.

trendia 9y ago
Do you think spy agencies should be able to collect data on foreigners? e.g. US can collect foreigners and UK can collect foreigners? Do you think spy agencies should be able to swap data about those foreigners? Because the two in combination allows the UK to spy on US citizens and give it to the US, without the US needing to spy on its citize s
- rdxm 9y ago
  in response to your first question, yes of course. it's thier job. w.r.t. your second question, this is where things start to get grippy. see my response to another question referencing "realpolitik". in this context, then whether or not they should becomes a secondary consideration at the policy level.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- GauntletWizard 9y ago
  Yes, I think spy agencies should be able to spy on foreigners, and swap data. I don't think it's insane for the laws against collection of citizens data to include not trading for citizens data with foreign powers, such that the set of people that the UK and US spy agencies share data on is the disunion of their respective citizens. As with many things that involve crimes of thought or information, it's very hard to implement, and as such you should be careful how you phrase and prosecute, but that's a risk that has to be taken... And the penalties for when it's discovered should be appropriately severe to make up for that.
pgaddict 9y ago
I'm not particularly emotional about this, at least not in the "getting irrational" sense. And I'm not against intelligence agencies in principle, I acknowledge that we need them to some level. The difference is that I come from a country where secret service (both domestic and from other USSR-friendly countries) used to be almost almighty ~25 years ago. And I've seen the damage it inflicted on the society (including some family members) by eliminating any form of dissent or sign of disagreement with the government. Considering how much cheaper and easier dragnet-like surveillance got over the past few years ... well. You may point out this particular case (compromising SWIFT bureau) is different, i.e. it's the type of action you'd expect from NSA-type intelligence agencies. But it's a mistake to see the agencies as independent / isolated entities. The rest of the leak is however interesting as it shows how hoarding of NOBUS 0days fails, because it's never really NOBUS.

shouldbworking 9y ago

If all the leaks in the past decade have shown anything it's that everyone spies on everyone. It's been like that forever too. You can take some solace in knowing your country is almost definitely spying on the US as well. With the internet, I have never been surprised by US govt shenanigans. The internet is largely a product of the US military. It was originally designed for government communications in nuclear war. I say the same when people mention GPS. It's very civilian appearing but make no mistake it's very much connected to military.

rdxm 9y ago
+1 edit to add: I re-read this piece by Scneier every now and then.... http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/16/opinion/schneier-internet-surveillance/ http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/16/opinion/schneier-internet-surv...
- emmelaich 9y ago
  Excellent link. Somewhat similar: NSA's Dan Geer on how we are all intelligence officers now. https://www.theinternetpatrol.com/security-expert-dan-geer-we-are-all-intelligence-officers-now-full-text-here/ https://www.theinternetpatrol.com/security-expert-dan-geer-w...
terrestrial 9y ago
> If all the leaks in the past decade have shown anything it's that everyone spies on everyone. It's been like that forever too. It may have been like that for a long time, but it's not entirely true anymore. The leaks show an emergent trend of cooperation between the western intelligence agencies, i.e. the "fourteen eyes". This is the most worrying part IMO. Now you have a small elite sitting on enough power to take out anyone or control pretty much all information on the internet. We laugh at Baidu and Yandex, but if these people want something they'll have it.
bigbugbag 9y ago
This "every one is doing it argument" fails to address the difference in scale between the US and the of the world. As if I took a knife and stabbed someone with it, and say well it's not that bad, look those kids over there they fight all the time, see right here the one in shorts here kicked the other one with the baseball cap who's crying. I mean you can't be seriously suggesting that Namibia can engage in spying as the US does, and this is true for the large majority of the countries around the globe.