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Can you point to any papers published in reputable journals that make that point? Its not that I don't trust you, being some random guy on the internet, but the
by bokonist 16y ago
Can you point to any papers published in reputable journals that make that point? Its not that I don't trust you, being some random guy on the internet, but there are people who study history and government structure for a living and I'd think they might have more experience with this sort of thing.
If you want your truth from authority, join a church. Universities have the same selection method (existing clergy/academics choose the next generation based on whether the existing clery/academics agree with the views of the rising class), and same history (Harvard, Yale, etc were founded seminaries).
I studied political-science at Yale, and the professors are in their own world. Their studies had little to relation to the real world of politics, which I had learned about from actually working in Congress. The university in many subjects has devolved into the modern equivalent of scholasticism. Peer-review can be a tool for eliminating falsehood. But it can also be a tool for filtering out truth, and perpetuating falsehood. This applies 10X for politically sensitive subjects. Universities receive greats amount funding from nominally democratic governments.
That said, even a politically correct institutions can't always avoid the truth. Check out this NYTimes article, it cites a bunch of professors who have studied the link between democracy and violence: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/30/opinion/30patterson.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1275311050-4oDgrH8preLcMo3dxEf%20%20g&pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/30/opinion/30patterson.html?a...
I haven't read any of the works cited in the article, so I can't vouch for them. I came to my conclusions by studying for myself the history of dozens of democratic transitions. I suggest doing the same yourself, if you are really interested. Pick five or ten countries randomly. Trace their history, starting as far back as you can. Read both progressive, reactionary, and primary sources. And then examine whether the democratic transitions they underwent increased or decreased the quality of governance.
Wow. I don't even know what to do with a historical argument this absurd.
From Sydney George Fisher's History of the American Revolution: "When we consider that this mob rule was steadily practised for a period of more than ten years, it is not surprising that it left an almost indelible mark on our people. They seem to have acquired from it that fixed habit now called lynch law, which is still practised among us in many parts of the country in a most regular and systematic manner, and participated in by respectable people. The term lynch law originated in the method of handling the loyalists in the Revolution, and was named from the brother of the man who founded Lynchburgh in Virginia....If the loyalists could come back from the grave, they would probably say that their fears and prophecies had been fulfilled in the most extraordinary manner; sometimes literally; in most cases substantially. There is no question that the Revolution was followed by a great deal of bad government, political corruption, sectional strife, coarseness in manners, hostility to the arts and refinements of life, assassination, lynch law, and other things which horrified Englishmen and afforded the stock material for the ridicule of such writers as Dickens and Mrs. Montagu." (source: http://books.google.com/books?id=SZccAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA166-IA1&vq=lynch&dq=the+true+history+of+the+american+revolution&output=text http://books.google.com/books?id=SZccAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA166-I... )
This will come as a great surprise to Martin Luther.
I misspoke. I should have said, the virulent anti-semitism of the 1930's did not exist in Germany in the era of Metternich (first half of the 19th century). Anti-semitism was prevalent centuries before. The situation had gotten much better by the mid-1800's. But with the introduction of universal suffrage in 1870 it got much worse again.
But leaders in autocracies do the exact same thing as well. So it seems like how widespread the franchise was might not be the relevant variable.
It happens most in autocracies that came to a power as a result of party politics, or a violent struggle between political parties. Elections are the poison, tyranny and civil war are the disease. It's extremely rare in history to find a demagogue monarch.
Do you have any model societies where a small fraction of the population votes instead?
Victorian Britain, America before 1820, Rhodesia. Modern Hong Kong.
Actually, I have read that book and I think you're misrepresenting Chua's thesis
It's not her thesis that's interesting, but the examples. Most of them do involve democracy. She tries to make her book less politically incorrect by spreading the blame on markets too, but I don't buy it.
I think the takeaway there is that democracy involves a lot more than just voting: you need to build the rule of law and emplace a whole set of norms about how power is shared amongst dissenting groups. If you ignore all that and just impose elections immediately, then yeah, things can go very badly.
If you already have a government that provides rule of law, and a good set of norms about power sharing, why change things up?
What makes democracy in America and Europe less pernicious is that a) its diluted a great deal by the committee system, unelected civil servants, and a permanent usually unelected judiciary. And b) there is a K-12 education system telling people not to be racist or jingoistic.
- MichaelSalib 16y agoIf you want your truth from authority, join a church. Universities have the same selection method (existing clergy/academics choose the next generation based on whether the existing clery/academics agree with the views of the rising class), and same history (Harvard, Yale, etc were founded seminaries). Do you apply the same reasoning to the physical sciences? It would be awesome if you downgraded the germ theory of disease to a kooky religious superstition. I studied political-science at Yale, and the professors are in their own world. Their studies had little to relation to the real world of politics, which I had learned about from actually working in Congress. So, you chose poorly when it came to grad school. Then you inferred that all grad schools suffered the same problems at the institution you poorly selected. Is that right? Your description of academia does not jive with the academic writings I read at Lawyers, Guns and Money or the Duck of Minerva or the Edge of the American West. Those academics seem pretty realistic. I have not been blown away by the knowledge, let alone the honesty of congressmen and their staff. There is no question that the Revolution was followed by a great deal of bad government, political corruption, sectional strife, coarseness in manners, hostility to the arts and refinements of life, assassination, lynch law, and other things which horrified Englishmen and afforded the stock material for the ridicule of such writers as Dickens and Mrs. Montagu. Um, are we to believe that before the revolution, there was no corruption in the entire British Empire? No bad government? No coarseness of manners? No assassination? I suppose the British Empire was a very polite place. Unless you were Irish. Or Indian. Or Chinese. Then you'd be exterminated by very very polite British monarchists. But that's OK, their manners were impeccable, and in the end, isn't that what really matters? Honestly, do you have anything beyond royalist propaganda? It happens most in autocracies that came to a power as a result of party politics, or a violent struggle between political parties. Really? I think the number of autocracies that have their genesis in military coups shows otherwise. Elections are the poison, tyranny and civil war are the disease. It's extremely rare in history to find a demagogue monarch. So Emperor Hirohito is the one exception? As is Ghengis Kahn? And why are we limiting ourselves to monarchs? There are many demagogues who were also tyrants. Demagogy seems related to the availability of modern communications technology. The best tools to facilitate demagogy only arrived in an era where monarchism declined. If you already have a government that provides rule of law, and a good set of norms about power sharing, why change things up? Because an embryonic state that is developing the rule of law might not be as sustainable as a mature democracy. Certainly, states run exclusively by elites have to constantly worry about popular revolution.