4 ms·

I think this is a perfect example to test the theory they bring up about the gender pay gap. If so much value is being left on the table ignoring older workers,

I think this is a perfect example to test the theory they bring up about the gender pay gap. If so much value is being left on the table ignoring older workers, gather them all up into a company and beat the market.

stevenwoo 10y ago
The study referenced in this article hypothesizes gender pay gap exists because companies are willing to pay more to people who are willing to spend more hours at the office. (They looked at more careers than programming.) https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/24/upshot/the-pay-gap-is-because-of-gender-not-jobs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/24/upshot/the-pay-gap-is-bec... On the one hand this seems fair, on the other hand, the escalating arms race to spend all your time at the office doesn't seem like a great way to live for the ordinary employee without some ownership stake. The careers with the most gender parity were the ones without excessive time in the office associated with success. If the time spent in office theory is true, it also makes that theory about gathering all the employees of a certain class to start a company not relevant.
- greenyoda 10y ago
  Well, I've seen lots of studies over the years that claim that extra time spent in the office (beyond 40 hours per week) doesn't translate into extra productivity. Some reasons mentioned include: - Tired employees make more errors, which then take time to fix. And if you've been working for 12 hours, you'll be mentally tired even if you're not physically tired. - If you spend 12 hours a day at the office, lots of things you need to do in your life (e.g., arranging your social life, running errands, going to the gym, eating meals) will get done while you're at the office. - A lot of programmers (myself included) get their best thinking done when they're relaxing away from the office.
  - Asooka 10y ago
    Maybe not extra actual productivity, but extra imagined productivity and when it comes time to raises, it's not reality, or what could have been, but your boss's imagination that counts.
    - crdoconnor 10y ago
      I don't think bosses who want long hours are all that interested in actual productivity (which, especially with software, they don't seem all that capable of measuring anyway). I think they simply see it as a signal of loyalty.
- eveningcoffee 10y ago
  I think you (and I have noticed it elsewhere here) have nailed the main cause for the discrimination based on gender (and probably also age) that is really counter productive for the society as a whole.
WalterBright 10y ago
I'm an older worker, and I say bring it on!
- koja86 10y ago
  "After careful review of your background, we have elected to pursue other more properly ignored candidates. Please don’t hesitate to contact us if you have any questions!"
rl3 10y ago
>If so much value is being left on the table ignoring older workers, gather them all up into a company and beat the market. That's actually exactly my plan should my startup receive funding. I'd say of the first 30 people I'd hire, most are probably above the age of 30. Most have families. All are at the top of their fields. In the Bay Area, those factors probably translate to an average salary of at least $250k, which is roughly double what a typical startup pays in its early days.
- joshmarinacci 10y ago
  What is your company? What does it do? Have you considered remote workers, aka: experienced older people who want to live in a better place for their families?
  - rl3 10y ago
    >What is your company? I'd prefer not to say. >What does it do? Put vaguely, delivers on the promise of future UI (think Iron Man), but does so solving some hard real-world problems in the process. >Have you considered remote workers ... Absolutely. While most already live in the Bay Area, there are several people from other countries. I'd have no problem with remote workers. There's definitely additional challenges involved, but nothing that can't be solved, especially with a mature team.
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  I genuinely hope you receive funding.
  - rl3 10y ago
    Thank you.
- danieltillett 10y ago
  I tried this. Older workers are great if you have a stable problem (better than young workers on average), but are terrible if the job requires a lot of context shifting. Startups and stable problems are rarely found in the same room.
gaoshan 10y ago
How about mix the groups together and gain the best of all possible outcomes? Groups of workers are like components in a dish and older workers are often the salt/sugar/umami of the recipe.
InclinedPlane 10y ago
I'm surprised to see anyone put forward such an argument, it doesn't hold up under even the lightest scrutiny. The whole reason the problems of gender, age, and race discrimination are hard to tackle today are because they exist as widespread cultural biases, not as official corporate policies. Any company attempting to implement a sort of "reverse bias" as an official policy immediately opens themselves to legal action and a PR nightmare (because it's exploitative). Few companies are that stupid, which is why it doesn't happen. Legally, companies can choose to be better at hiring and to try to keep their biases in check using training, policies, corporate culture, etc. This can be effective but because it also goes hand in hand with paying everyone equitably the major advantage is pulling from a larger talent pool. And make no mistake, tons of companies do just this and are successful at it. It is a significant competitive advantage. However, there's also no strong feedback mechanism that causes a company who can "beat the market" by doing things better to somehow change centuries of ingrained socio-cultural biases. That's just not how it works. Moreover, the idea that businesses are somehow universally run by god-kings who act purely rationally is sheer fantasy that has zero relationship to reality. Business managers and owners are just human beings. They are flawed and they work against their own self-interest just as much as anyone else does. They are driven by their own desires (ego, power, status, etc.) as much as they are by a sense of trying to maximize their RoI.

stevenwoo 10y ago

The study referenced in this article hypothesizes gender pay gap exists because companies are willing to pay more to people who are willing to spend more hours at the office. (They looked at more careers than programming.) https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/24/upshot/the-pay-gap-is-because-of-gender-not-jobs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/24/upshot/the-pay-gap-is-bec... On the one hand this seems fair, on the other hand, the escalating arms race to spend all your time at the office doesn't seem like a great way to live for the ordinary employee without some ownership stake. The careers with the most gender parity were the ones without excessive time in the office associated with success. If the time spent in office theory is true, it also makes that theory about gathering all the employees of a certain class to start a company not relevant.

greenyoda 10y ago
Well, I've seen lots of studies over the years that claim that extra time spent in the office (beyond 40 hours per week) doesn't translate into extra productivity. Some reasons mentioned include: - Tired employees make more errors, which then take time to fix. And if you've been working for 12 hours, you'll be mentally tired even if you're not physically tired. - If you spend 12 hours a day at the office, lots of things you need to do in your life (e.g., arranging your social life, running errands, going to the gym, eating meals) will get done while you're at the office. - A lot of programmers (myself included) get their best thinking done when they're relaxing away from the office.
- Asooka 10y ago
  Maybe not extra actual productivity, but extra imagined productivity and when it comes time to raises, it's not reality, or what could have been, but your boss's imagination that counts.
  - crdoconnor 10y ago
    I don't think bosses who want long hours are all that interested in actual productivity (which, especially with software, they don't seem all that capable of measuring anyway). I think they simply see it as a signal of loyalty.
eveningcoffee 10y ago
I think you (and I have noticed it elsewhere here) have nailed the main cause for the discrimination based on gender (and probably also age) that is really counter productive for the society as a whole.

WalterBright 10y ago

I'm an older worker, and I say bring it on!

koja86 10y ago
"After careful review of your background, we have elected to pursue other more properly ignored candidates. Please don’t hesitate to contact us if you have any questions!"

rl3 10y ago

>If so much value is being left on the table ignoring older workers, gather them all up into a company and beat the market. That's actually exactly my plan should my startup receive funding. I'd say of the first 30 people I'd hire, most are probably above the age of 30. Most have families. All are at the top of their fields. In the Bay Area, those factors probably translate to an average salary of at least $250k, which is roughly double what a typical startup pays in its early days.

joshmarinacci 10y ago
What is your company? What does it do? Have you considered remote workers, aka: experienced older people who want to live in a better place for their families?
- rl3 10y ago
  >What is your company? I'd prefer not to say. >What does it do? Put vaguely, delivers on the promise of future UI (think Iron Man), but does so solving some hard real-world problems in the process. >Have you considered remote workers ... Absolutely. While most already live in the Bay Area, there are several people from other countries. I'd have no problem with remote workers. There's definitely additional challenges involved, but nothing that can't be solved, especially with a mature team.
toomuchtodo 10y ago
I genuinely hope you receive funding.
- rl3 10y ago
  Thank you.
danieltillett 10y ago
I tried this. Older workers are great if you have a stable problem (better than young workers on average), but are terrible if the job requires a lot of context shifting. Startups and stable problems are rarely found in the same room.

gaoshan 10y ago

How about mix the groups together and gain the best of all possible outcomes? Groups of workers are like components in a dish and older workers are often the salt/sugar/umami of the recipe.

InclinedPlane 10y ago

I'm surprised to see anyone put forward such an argument, it doesn't hold up under even the lightest scrutiny. The whole reason the problems of gender, age, and race discrimination are hard to tackle today are because they exist as widespread cultural biases, not as official corporate policies. Any company attempting to implement a sort of "reverse bias" as an official policy immediately opens themselves to legal action and a PR nightmare (because it's exploitative). Few companies are that stupid, which is why it doesn't happen. Legally, companies can choose to be better at hiring and to try to keep their biases in check using training, policies, corporate culture, etc. This can be effective but because it also goes hand in hand with paying everyone equitably the major advantage is pulling from a larger talent pool. And make no mistake, tons of companies do just this and are successful at it. It is a significant competitive advantage. However, there's also no strong feedback mechanism that causes a company who can "beat the market" by doing things better to somehow change centuries of ingrained socio-cultural biases. That's just not how it works. Moreover, the idea that businesses are somehow universally run by god-kings who act purely rationally is sheer fantasy that has zero relationship to reality. Business managers and owners are just human beings. They are flawed and they work against their own self-interest just as much as anyone else does. They are driven by their own desires (ego, power, status, etc.) as much as they are by a sense of trying to maximize their RoI.