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How about, instead of trying to come up with protocols, just make forums and blogging sure that are so good that people prefer them to other mediums like facebo

by hasenj 10y ago

How about, instead of trying to come up with protocols, just make forums and blogging sure that are so good that people prefer them to other mediums like facebook/reddit/twitter? Make them available to install (like traditional forums) instead of a good service. And build into them methods for users to liberate their data and/cross-link their identities from one software to another?

falcolas 10y ago
Could take a step back down the technology chain and use email, newsgroups, and XMPP hidden behind a great GUI. Not very sexy, but it would be ridiculously decentralized. Throw in GPG for some behind-the-scenes encryption and authentication if you really want to knock it out of the park.
- hdhzy 10y ago
  GPG would not guarantee Forward Secrecy. OMEMO [0] is better if XMPP would be considered. [0]: https://conversations.im/omemo/ https://conversations.im/omemo/
- qznc 10y ago
  This all builds on the centralized DNS. I would not call that "ridiculously" decentralized. You can go further by p2p technology. Not that I believe that it would be a good idea.
_jal 10y ago
Well, at a first glance, this is mostly reusing existing protocols, so I'm not even sure where the complaint comes from. Second, protocols matter. A lot. They are the are the landscape on which we build our online cities, and just like cities, if you look carefully, you can see outlines where old old protocols used to be. Code is law, as a certain smart guy says. And even if you really don't care about all that and just want to see the next new shiny, it still matters. Some of us, for instance, think Twitter's problems stem directly from the fact that they wrote a business plan instead of an RFC. That is, the nature of the service would be much better-implemented as a federated messaging service owned by no one, more similar to email. Of course, nobody gets VC$ for writing RFCs.
- nickpsecurity 10y ago
  "Well, at a first glance, this is mostly reusing existing protocols, so I'm not even sure where the complaint comes from." It comes from the fact that non of the decentralized tech is getting massive adoption outside of BitTorrent. That got adopted because it met a user need better than anything else as opposed to being decentralized. Since all this tech isn't working & centralized tech is, then the commenter wonders why someone doesn't just build compelling, privacy-preserving, centralized tech that the masses might use. Probably because it's harder work with unfamiliar skills (eg marketing, UX, business) for developers that would rather bullshit around with custom crypto or protocols nobody will ever use. I strongly encourage privacy-preserving, non-profit, usable alternatives to every popular ad-supported or cheap tool out there as an intermediate step. That might go somewhere. Think WhatApp vs Facebook Messenger but with WhatApp using Moxie's stuff and staying paid non-profit.
snowpanda 10y ago
I think the problem isn't so much building something good, but something that catches on. I would argue that there's plenty of good projects out there (like i2p), it just doesn't become popular and it never gets used. Timing and marketing is 90% of the way there in my opinion.
EGreg 10y ago
Great idea. That is what we are doing with https://qbix.com/platform https://qbix.com/platform . We started back in 2011, and managed to build a large open source system that anyone can install and builds apps on top of (https://github.com/Qbix/Platform https://github.com/Qbix/Platform). (Video of what you can build quickly: https://vimeo.com/208438090?ref=em-v-share https://vimeo.com/208438090?ref=em-v-share) However, when I heard about solid, I reached out to Tim Berners-Lee and was interested in partnering with the solid team. Ultimately it is good if our system is just one of many that are interoperable because they all support the same protocol. There were a couple things that needed to be added to this protocol to make it fully capable of handling our use cases, however. I like it when existing projects get together and design a protocol with everyone's voice being heard, as with oAuth with Twitter and the (sadly ignored) xAuth with Meebo back then. So - protocols are good. But I have come to realize there is a lot of politics in this, and it's not as easy to collaborate as I had hoped.
johnchristopher 10y ago
I was thinking about that this morning and I have the hunch that the medium isn't the problem. Facebook and Twitter are perfect for micro-blogging (remember that term ?). That's what people do on these services. Yes, sometimes they have conversations with brands or are discussing a bit of politics but it quickly disappears from the rada... screen. It's all about reacting in the moment. That's not something that was ever welcomed on forums. It's not the same message. When people get back from work ? They relax on the net by chatting on FB. They want some info ? Wikipedia, SO and thousand of other communities living in a good old board are welcoming them. Facebook, twitter, Instagram and others are just huge in our field of view because most people on the web just want to hang out and chill out. And they do that on Facebook. People who want to have a conversation and to get back to it two or three days later are still roaming forums (HN, reddit, etc., phpboard installs, etc.) and blogs. But these formats don't need big news every 6 hours to exist. my tired 2ç. analogy: facebook is huge because it's getting paid to hang ads in every pub in town where people go to relax drink and socialize by er... drinking, usual boards works because it's more like my friend's attic where people go to relax drink and socialize by playing dnd but it's my friend's attic so girls aren't allowed (unless you are cool, can you geek out ?)
- m-j-fox 10y ago
  Sounds like a BBS.

by hasenj 10y ago

falcolas 10y ago

Could take a step back down the technology chain and use email, newsgroups, and XMPP hidden behind a great GUI. Not very sexy, but it would be ridiculously decentralized. Throw in GPG for some behind-the-scenes encryption and authentication if you really want to knock it out of the park.

hdhzy 10y ago
GPG would not guarantee Forward Secrecy. OMEMO [0] is better if XMPP would be considered. [0]: https://conversations.im/omemo/ https://conversations.im/omemo/
qznc 10y ago
This all builds on the centralized DNS. I would not call that "ridiculously" decentralized. You can go further by p2p technology. Not that I believe that it would be a good idea.

_jal 10y ago

Well, at a first glance, this is mostly reusing existing protocols, so I'm not even sure where the complaint comes from. Second, protocols matter. A lot. They are the are the landscape on which we build our online cities, and just like cities, if you look carefully, you can see outlines where old old protocols used to be. Code is law, as a certain smart guy says. And even if you really don't care about all that and just want to see the next new shiny, it still matters. Some of us, for instance, think Twitter's problems stem directly from the fact that they wrote a business plan instead of an RFC. That is, the nature of the service would be much better-implemented as a federated messaging service owned by no one, more similar to email. Of course, nobody gets VC$ for writing RFCs.

nickpsecurity 10y ago
"Well, at a first glance, this is mostly reusing existing protocols, so I'm not even sure where the complaint comes from." It comes from the fact that non of the decentralized tech is getting massive adoption outside of BitTorrent. That got adopted because it met a user need better than anything else as opposed to being decentralized. Since all this tech isn't working & centralized tech is, then the commenter wonders why someone doesn't just build compelling, privacy-preserving, centralized tech that the masses might use. Probably because it's harder work with unfamiliar skills (eg marketing, UX, business) for developers that would rather bullshit around with custom crypto or protocols nobody will ever use. I strongly encourage privacy-preserving, non-profit, usable alternatives to every popular ad-supported or cheap tool out there as an intermediate step. That might go somewhere. Think WhatApp vs Facebook Messenger but with WhatApp using Moxie's stuff and staying paid non-profit.

snowpanda 10y ago

I think the problem isn't so much building something good, but something that catches on. I would argue that there's plenty of good projects out there (like i2p), it just doesn't become popular and it never gets used. Timing and marketing is 90% of the way there in my opinion.

EGreg 10y ago

Great idea. That is what we are doing with https://qbix.com/platform https://qbix.com/platform . We started back in 2011, and managed to build a large open source system that anyone can install and builds apps on top of (https://github.com/Qbix/Platform https://github.com/Qbix/Platform). (Video of what you can build quickly: https://vimeo.com/208438090?ref=em-v-share https://vimeo.com/208438090?ref=em-v-share) However, when I heard about solid, I reached out to Tim Berners-Lee and was interested in partnering with the solid team. Ultimately it is good if our system is just one of many that are interoperable because they all support the same protocol. There were a couple things that needed to be added to this protocol to make it fully capable of handling our use cases, however. I like it when existing projects get together and design a protocol with everyone's voice being heard, as with oAuth with Twitter and the (sadly ignored) xAuth with Meebo back then. So - protocols are good. But I have come to realize there is a lot of politics in this, and it's not as easy to collaborate as I had hoped.

johnchristopher 10y ago

I was thinking about that this morning and I have the hunch that the medium isn't the problem. Facebook and Twitter are perfect for micro-blogging (remember that term ?). That's what people do on these services. Yes, sometimes they have conversations with brands or are discussing a bit of politics but it quickly disappears from the rada... screen. It's all about reacting in the moment. That's not something that was ever welcomed on forums. It's not the same message. When people get back from work ? They relax on the net by chatting on FB. They want some info ? Wikipedia, SO and thousand of other communities living in a good old board are welcoming them. Facebook, twitter, Instagram and others are just huge in our field of view because most people on the web just want to hang out and chill out. And they do that on Facebook. People who want to have a conversation and to get back to it two or three days later are still roaming forums (HN, reddit, etc., phpboard installs, etc.) and blogs. But these formats don't need big news every 6 hours to exist. my tired 2ç. analogy: facebook is huge because it's getting paid to hang ads in every pub in town where people go to relax drink and socialize by er... drinking, usual boards works because it's more like my friend's attic where people go to relax drink and socialize by playing dnd but it's my friend's attic so girls aren't allowed (unless you are cool, can you geek out ?)

m-j-fox 10y ago
Sounds like a BBS.