8 ms·

Emil Cioran: Anti-philosopher of Life and Death

98 points by AlexeyBrin 10y ago

coldtea 10y ago
An unbearable philosopher-wannabe writing the same platitudes and whining for decades on end while living a cushy literary/academic life. Pass, and go directly to someone like Schopenhauer...
- soufron 10y ago
  "cushy"? He quitted the Academy and stayed poor for most of his life. He refused every literary awards that he received. He was a solitary living in the same small apartment in Paris until his death.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    None of those point to any kind of troubled life (except his sickness at the end). He got all kinds of scholarships and awards early on, he had continued recognition throughout his life, had an income from his books and never had trouble to find a publisher, he went through the most troubled period of Europe and didn't lift a finger to fight (on the contrary: he was partial to the Nazis and the Romanian Iron Guard), and could get a job at any time but refused.
    - nnq 10y ago
      I'm really curious why are you so wound up against him to mount such a strong an "ad hominem" attack against him? Yeah, his work had mostly only aesthetic value imho (aka "worthless", I agree), bu one doesn't judges philosophers based on their life and character, one judges their ideas. And even so, I'd have no problems of with a philosopher who was lazy and sympathized with horrible people. Heck, if Hitler wrote good philosophy himself I'd praise his philosophy despite the person (note: he did not, I agree, Mein Khampf is 100% crap).
      - theoh 10y ago
        In the case of an artist, I'm sure you'd consider their life experience and artistic production to be deeply inter-related. It's the same with philosophy and literature. Only mathematical logic and similar formal philosophy is immune from an analysis that takes the author into account... The "New Criticism" of the mid-20th century which rules out considerations of biography is just one possible stance. The censorious tone of dang concerning a personal reaction to Cioran feels like part of a HN ethos of denying the value of subjectivity. A deadly caricature of life as lived by engineers.
    - petre 10y ago
      The pen is mightier than the sword.
- mariusmg 10y ago
  You have no idea what are you talking about...
- vixen99 10y ago
  Are you by chance a graduate of the Colin Wilson school of literary criticism?
  - coldtea 10y ago
    No, just one for good philosophy.
    - Mediterraneo10 10y ago
      I daresay “good philosophy” is based on the rigor of the ideas themselves, not the lives of philosophers themselves. The canon of philosophy is replete with men who did distasteful or abhorrent things, but their ideas are studied nonetheless.
      - coldtea 10y ago
        >I daresay “good philosophy” is based on the rigor of the ideas themselves, not the lives of philosophers themselves. The canon of philosophy is replete with men who did distasteful or abhorrent things, but their ideas are studied nonetheless. That only drives the point further: there are no ideas in Cioran, just (or in any case, mostly) whining. My mentioning of his life wasn't to diminish his ideas (or rather, the lack thereof), just to show how unjustified the whining.
        simion314 10y ago
        If you have a happy life won't you be pissed/scared at the idea of death? Is there a philosophy that can give you comfort regarding the idea of death that is not a religious thing, the only idea that gives me a extremely small comfort is the idea that time is relative so in theory a dead person is stil young and living somewhere in the past just we can't get there.
        miloshadzic 10y ago
        Maybe look into Epicureanism. In particular, before you read wikipedia or stanford's encyclopedia, I'd recommend this letter[1] written by Epicurus himself. [1]: http://www.epicurus.net/en/menoeceus.html http://www.epicurus.net/en/menoeceus.html
- dang 10y ago
  Would you please not post snarky dismissals and especially not start off threads with them? It degrades discussion and we're hoping for better. If an article (or philosopher) is so not to your taste that you can't think of anything else to say, please just don't comment. Nothing is to everyone's taste, and there's usually something else that's interesting.
- RodericDay 10y ago
  You're a pretty great poster and I hope you know that the frequency with which your posts are greyed out is a good indicator that you often push the right buttons. A bunch of tech-nerds who routinely act skeptical of women testimony about harassment, waxing poetic about the nuances of the thought of a Nazi sympathizer.
  - RodericDay 10y ago
    > "there is no present-day politician that I see as more sympathetic and admirable than Hitler",[1] while expressing his approval for the Night of the Long Knives—"what has humanity lost if the lives of a few imbeciles were taken" HN: "wow; beautiful, thoughtful stuff. really makes me think."
    - throwawaycozsv 10y ago
      Has anyone in this thread written any comment of the sort, regarding such a hateful excerpt? It would be shocking if they did, but I haven't read anything like that. It's interesting to note that you are agreeing with Coldtea but for completely different reasons. Coldtea is saying that Cioran's works are intrinsically crap, without mentioning once Cioran's Nazi sympathies as a reason. On the other hand, you're saying (and correct me if I'm wrong) that because Cioran was a Nazi sympathizer, then all of Cioran's works must necessarily be crap, because it would not be acceptable to think otherwise.
  - sctb 10y ago
    Please stop violating the guidelines by sparking sub-flamewars. We've asked you already to stop, and we ban accounts that won't.
antinatalism 10y ago
It is not worth the bother of killing yourself, since you always kill yourself too late. -E.Cioran
- slau 10y ago
  Emil Cioran is a pretty twisted individual, but his writing is amazingly beautiful. In particular, De l'inconvénient d'être né is pretty fantastic, especially in French (haven't read any translated versions, so can't vouch for it). I was introduced to him by my previous boss. I was going through some rough times, and my boss recommended some of his books, summarising Cioran's thoughts on the matter of suicide as being a crutch to survive. He saw suicide as an eternal escape hatch. No matter what happened, he still had the comfort (and control) of being able to say "Stop." I'm not sure I would agree that it is the main message, but it is true that On the Heights of Despair does allude to that way of thinking. I highly recommend Cioran, to anyone who is interested by philosophy. As with most philosophers you will read about, there will be major disagreements between you and the author, but his works have definitely shaped how I perceived parts of life.
  - dakull 10y ago
    Indeed, I'm a native Romanian — his original works are almost lyrical. They did wonders during my depressive stages, especially “Pe culmile disperarii” (“On the Heights of Despair”) — will try it in English soon.
- rajangdavis 10y ago
  Is it sad that seeing this quote makes me happy? There is a sinister symmetry between the content and delivery, I wonder how the sentiment of this quote changes in different languages...
BafS 10y ago
Albert Caraco [1] is even darker than Cioran. He committed suicide right after his father's death. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Caraco https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Caraco
alphonsegaston 10y ago
I think Ciorian is interesting to understand as a case study in how an ecstatic nihilism can lead one to embracing all kinds of horrors. Before there was /pol/ recruiting white supremacists and online ISIS pledges, there was a young Ciorian aligning himself with the Nazi-affiliated Romanian Iron Cross. Understanding the draw of his thinking can help one understand the intellectual premise on which disaffected young men and women are seduced further into darkness.
- sebastianconcpt 10y ago
  Mechanicism combined with nihilism is a solid foundation for amoral realism. Of you give power to that thinking you'll basically fabricate an opportunist personality that will do social engineering justifying means thought ends. Invariably, genocide will be closely lurking.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
Cryptoboss 10y ago
I love this quote: "If philosophy struggled to make sense of life, what could it possibly offer on death?"
tiatia 10y ago
Yeah. Love this guy. If you like him and aphorisms, you may enjoy this Colombian: https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/340970.Nicol_s_G_mez_D_vila https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/340970.Nicol_s_G_mez...
grondilu 10y ago
> The Ancients are no good; to think about death is not to experience it – to believe one is not afraid of it only shows one has not yet met it: What about people who thought they will die and were ok with it? Or those that did indeed die and were, at least apparently, ok with it? Those cases are not so rare. It seems to me that, all philosophical attitudes apart, fear of death is a matter of character. Fear, after all, is an emotion and as such it is difficult, though probably not impossible to control consciously.
jadbox 10y ago
"Buddhism was too foreign a fantasy of escape for a deracinated westerner." This is where Cioran missed his 'escape latch' from the egocentric fear of death's grasp. It's challenging to explain this concisely: We die all the time. Every time you go to sleep, every time you learn something that changes your behavior, every time you leave your home, and ultimately, we die pretty much any time we engage in life. Why? Because everything about you changes over time- the cells on your body (they get replaced every ~7yrs) and the neuron behavior in your brain. The ego is an illusion the brain sometimes manufacture to internalize action. Talk to people that have experience "ego-death" via meditation or hallucinogens- they often drop the feeling of death's sting, in my experience. Death of oneself only causes the amount of fear in proportion to the attachment to 'oneself'. It's like being afraid that magic will die one day... which might be a terrible fear provided you truly believe in magic. But if you do believe in your ego, then you have no other choice than to fear non-existence. You might ask how does one carry on in the world without ego? You engage in the world much like the natural world engages with you. You live your values, which will prompt you to action. There's nothing wrong unboxing your ego when you need it from time to time, provided you dispel it when it's no longer useful... just like how we decide to believe in magic when we go see a magic show. There's an amazing class taught by Professor Kagan on Life and Death that I'd highly recommend: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2J7wSuFRl8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2J7wSuFRl8
- bitexploder 10y ago
  I can't help but thinking, for those of us interested in living the life we have until we can't any more, that this line of thinking is ultimately much more helpful. Death is a single, important, instant in our existence. We must give it the consideration it is due, but I also don't like the idea of being trapped by my own mortality. It will come when it comes, and I don't want to cheat myself of all the moments in between wrestling with its specter.
- stefantalpalaru 10y ago
  > The ego is an illusion > Talk to people that have experience "ego-death" via meditation or hallucinogens What if the ego's dissolution is the actual illusion? This reminds me of Sam Harris' "Waking Up" where he tries to construct a rational argument for the self being an illusion just because one can reach a temporary state of not being aware of it. The choice of which of the two is the actual illusion has no basis in rational thinking.
mcguire 10y ago
And then there was Karl Robert Eduard von Hartmann, with the cynic's version of Buddhism. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Robert_Eduard_von_Hartmann?wprov=sfla1 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Robert_Eduard_von_Hartm...
weatherlight 10y ago
Another poignant anti-natalist/pessimist/nihilist that is not to be missed is Thomas Ligotti. He picks up right were Cioran leaves off. Both have terrific yet bleak senses of humor and beautiful prose.
- Florin_Andrei 10y ago
  Hell, I don't know. He's definitely a gifted writer, there's no doubt about that. But the core of his writings... I've tried to read his stuff, since it was quite popular in some circles I was frequenting back in college. I just couldn't. I had a truly physical reaction of revulsion. I literally felt like throwing up. Very gifted individual, but deeply afflicted by depression. His was a medical case.
  - weatherlight 10y ago
    Are you talking about his short stories or his nonfiction?
- inostia 10y ago
  So happy to see him mentioned here. I haven't read his non-fiction, but his fiction is incredible.
  - weatherlight 10y ago
    I can not recommend more, "The Conspiracy Against the Human Race."
    - inostia 10y ago
      Funny to mention here, but you may like Current 93, eg "In a Foreign Town, In a Foreign Land"[1] 1. https://www.discogs.com/Current-93-With-Thomas-Ligotti-In-A-Foreign-Town-In-A-Foreign-Land/release/117979 https://www.discogs.com/Current-93-With-Thomas-Ligotti-In-A-...
jaza 10y ago
Bit of a gloomy chap, isn't he?

98 points by AlexeyBrin 10y ago

An unbearable philosopher-wannabe writing the same platitudes and whining for decades on end while living a cushy literary/academic life. Pass, and go directly to someone like Schopenhauer...

soufron 10y ago
"cushy"? He quitted the Academy and stayed poor for most of his life. He refused every literary awards that he received. He was a solitary living in the same small apartment in Paris until his death.
- coldtea 10y ago
  None of those point to any kind of troubled life (except his sickness at the end). He got all kinds of scholarships and awards early on, he had continued recognition throughout his life, had an income from his books and never had trouble to find a publisher, he went through the most troubled period of Europe and didn't lift a finger to fight (on the contrary: he was partial to the Nazis and the Romanian Iron Guard), and could get a job at any time but refused.
  - nnq 10y ago
    I'm really curious why are you so wound up against him to mount such a strong an "ad hominem" attack against him? Yeah, his work had mostly only aesthetic value imho (aka "worthless", I agree), bu one doesn't judges philosophers based on their life and character, one judges their ideas. And even so, I'd have no problems of with a philosopher who was lazy and sympathized with horrible people. Heck, if Hitler wrote good philosophy himself I'd praise his philosophy despite the person (note: he did not, I agree, Mein Khampf is 100% crap).
    - theoh 10y ago
      In the case of an artist, I'm sure you'd consider their life experience and artistic production to be deeply inter-related. It's the same with philosophy and literature. Only mathematical logic and similar formal philosophy is immune from an analysis that takes the author into account... The "New Criticism" of the mid-20th century which rules out considerations of biography is just one possible stance. The censorious tone of dang concerning a personal reaction to Cioran feels like part of a HN ethos of denying the value of subjectivity. A deadly caricature of life as lived by engineers.
  - petre 10y ago
    The pen is mightier than the sword.
mariusmg 10y ago
You have no idea what are you talking about...
vixen99 10y ago
Are you by chance a graduate of the Colin Wilson school of literary criticism?
- coldtea 10y ago
  No, just one for good philosophy.
  - Mediterraneo10 10y ago
    I daresay “good philosophy” is based on the rigor of the ideas themselves, not the lives of philosophers themselves. The canon of philosophy is replete with men who did distasteful or abhorrent things, but their ideas are studied nonetheless.
    - coldtea 10y ago
      >I daresay “good philosophy” is based on the rigor of the ideas themselves, not the lives of philosophers themselves. The canon of philosophy is replete with men who did distasteful or abhorrent things, but their ideas are studied nonetheless. That only drives the point further: there are no ideas in Cioran, just (or in any case, mostly) whining. My mentioning of his life wasn't to diminish his ideas (or rather, the lack thereof), just to show how unjustified the whining.
      - simion314 10y ago
        If you have a happy life won't you be pissed/scared at the idea of death? Is there a philosophy that can give you comfort regarding the idea of death that is not a religious thing, the only idea that gives me a extremely small comfort is the idea that time is relative so in theory a dead person is stil young and living somewhere in the past just we can't get there.
        miloshadzic 10y ago
        Maybe look into Epicureanism. In particular, before you read wikipedia or stanford's encyclopedia, I'd recommend this letter[1] written by Epicurus himself. [1]: http://www.epicurus.net/en/menoeceus.html http://www.epicurus.net/en/menoeceus.html
dang 10y ago
Would you please not post snarky dismissals and especially not start off threads with them? It degrades discussion and we're hoping for better. If an article (or philosopher) is so not to your taste that you can't think of anything else to say, please just don't comment. Nothing is to everyone's taste, and there's usually something else that's interesting.
RodericDay 10y ago
You're a pretty great poster and I hope you know that the frequency with which your posts are greyed out is a good indicator that you often push the right buttons. A bunch of tech-nerds who routinely act skeptical of women testimony about harassment, waxing poetic about the nuances of the thought of a Nazi sympathizer.
- RodericDay 10y ago
  > "there is no present-day politician that I see as more sympathetic and admirable than Hitler",[1] while expressing his approval for the Night of the Long Knives—"what has humanity lost if the lives of a few imbeciles were taken" HN: "wow; beautiful, thoughtful stuff. really makes me think."
  - throwawaycozsv 10y ago
    Has anyone in this thread written any comment of the sort, regarding such a hateful excerpt? It would be shocking if they did, but I haven't read anything like that. It's interesting to note that you are agreeing with Coldtea but for completely different reasons. Coldtea is saying that Cioran's works are intrinsically crap, without mentioning once Cioran's Nazi sympathies as a reason. On the other hand, you're saying (and correct me if I'm wrong) that because Cioran was a Nazi sympathizer, then all of Cioran's works must necessarily be crap, because it would not be acceptable to think otherwise.
- sctb 10y ago
  Please stop violating the guidelines by sparking sub-flamewars. We've asked you already to stop, and we ban accounts that won't.

antinatalism 10y ago

It is not worth the bother of killing yourself, since you always kill yourself too late. -E.Cioran

slau 10y ago
Emil Cioran is a pretty twisted individual, but his writing is amazingly beautiful. In particular, De l'inconvénient d'être né is pretty fantastic, especially in French (haven't read any translated versions, so can't vouch for it). I was introduced to him by my previous boss. I was going through some rough times, and my boss recommended some of his books, summarising Cioran's thoughts on the matter of suicide as being a crutch to survive. He saw suicide as an eternal escape hatch. No matter what happened, he still had the comfort (and control) of being able to say "Stop." I'm not sure I would agree that it is the main message, but it is true that On the Heights of Despair does allude to that way of thinking. I highly recommend Cioran, to anyone who is interested by philosophy. As with most philosophers you will read about, there will be major disagreements between you and the author, but his works have definitely shaped how I perceived parts of life.
- dakull 10y ago
  Indeed, I'm a native Romanian — his original works are almost lyrical. They did wonders during my depressive stages, especially “Pe culmile disperarii” (“On the Heights of Despair”) — will try it in English soon.
rajangdavis 10y ago
Is it sad that seeing this quote makes me happy? There is a sinister symmetry between the content and delivery, I wonder how the sentiment of this quote changes in different languages...

BafS 10y ago

Albert Caraco [1] is even darker than Cioran. He committed suicide right after his father's death. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Caraco https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Caraco

alphonsegaston 10y ago

I think Ciorian is interesting to understand as a case study in how an ecstatic nihilism can lead one to embracing all kinds of horrors. Before there was /pol/ recruiting white supremacists and online ISIS pledges, there was a young Ciorian aligning himself with the Nazi-affiliated Romanian Iron Cross. Understanding the draw of his thinking can help one understand the intellectual premise on which disaffected young men and women are seduced further into darkness.

sebastianconcpt 10y ago
Mechanicism combined with nihilism is a solid foundation for amoral realism. Of you give power to that thinking you'll basically fabricate an opportunist personality that will do social engineering justifying means thought ends. Invariably, genocide will be closely lurking.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

Cryptoboss 10y ago

I love this quote: "If philosophy struggled to make sense of life, what could it possibly offer on death?"

tiatia 10y ago

Yeah. Love this guy. If you like him and aphorisms, you may enjoy this Colombian: https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/340970.Nicol_s_G_mez_D_vila https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/340970.Nicol_s_G_mez...

grondilu 10y ago

> The Ancients are no good; to think about death is not to experience it – to believe one is not afraid of it only shows one has not yet met it: What about people who thought they will die and were ok with it? Or those that did indeed die and were, at least apparently, ok with it? Those cases are not so rare. It seems to me that, all philosophical attitudes apart, fear of death is a matter of character. Fear, after all, is an emotion and as such it is difficult, though probably not impossible to control consciously.

jadbox 10y ago

"Buddhism was too foreign a fantasy of escape for a deracinated westerner." This is where Cioran missed his 'escape latch' from the egocentric fear of death's grasp. It's challenging to explain this concisely: We die all the time. Every time you go to sleep, every time you learn something that changes your behavior, every time you leave your home, and ultimately, we die pretty much any time we engage in life. Why? Because everything about you changes over time- the cells on your body (they get replaced every ~7yrs) and the neuron behavior in your brain. The ego is an illusion the brain sometimes manufacture to internalize action. Talk to people that have experience "ego-death" via meditation or hallucinogens- they often drop the feeling of death's sting, in my experience. Death of oneself only causes the amount of fear in proportion to the attachment to 'oneself'. It's like being afraid that magic will die one day... which might be a terrible fear provided you truly believe in magic. But if you do believe in your ego, then you have no other choice than to fear non-existence. You might ask how does one carry on in the world without ego? You engage in the world much like the natural world engages with you. You live your values, which will prompt you to action. There's nothing wrong unboxing your ego when you need it from time to time, provided you dispel it when it's no longer useful... just like how we decide to believe in magic when we go see a magic show. There's an amazing class taught by Professor Kagan on Life and Death that I'd highly recommend: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2J7wSuFRl8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2J7wSuFRl8

bitexploder 10y ago
I can't help but thinking, for those of us interested in living the life we have until we can't any more, that this line of thinking is ultimately much more helpful. Death is a single, important, instant in our existence. We must give it the consideration it is due, but I also don't like the idea of being trapped by my own mortality. It will come when it comes, and I don't want to cheat myself of all the moments in between wrestling with its specter.
stefantalpalaru 10y ago
> The ego is an illusion > Talk to people that have experience "ego-death" via meditation or hallucinogens What if the ego's dissolution is the actual illusion? This reminds me of Sam Harris' "Waking Up" where he tries to construct a rational argument for the self being an illusion just because one can reach a temporary state of not being aware of it. The choice of which of the two is the actual illusion has no basis in rational thinking.

mcguire 10y ago

And then there was Karl Robert Eduard von Hartmann, with the cynic's version of Buddhism. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Robert_Eduard_von_Hartmann?wprov=sfla1 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Robert_Eduard_von_Hartm...

weatherlight 10y ago

Another poignant anti-natalist/pessimist/nihilist that is not to be missed is Thomas Ligotti. He picks up right were Cioran leaves off. Both have terrific yet bleak senses of humor and beautiful prose.

Florin_Andrei 10y ago
Hell, I don't know. He's definitely a gifted writer, there's no doubt about that. But the core of his writings... I've tried to read his stuff, since it was quite popular in some circles I was frequenting back in college. I just couldn't. I had a truly physical reaction of revulsion. I literally felt like throwing up. Very gifted individual, but deeply afflicted by depression. His was a medical case.
- weatherlight 10y ago
  Are you talking about his short stories or his nonfiction?
inostia 10y ago
So happy to see him mentioned here. I haven't read his non-fiction, but his fiction is incredible.
- weatherlight 10y ago
  I can not recommend more, "The Conspiracy Against the Human Race."
  - inostia 10y ago
    Funny to mention here, but you may like Current 93, eg "In a Foreign Town, In a Foreign Land"[1] 1. https://www.discogs.com/Current-93-With-Thomas-Ligotti-In-A-Foreign-Town-In-A-Foreign-Land/release/117979 https://www.discogs.com/Current-93-With-Thomas-Ligotti-In-A-...

jaza 10y ago

Bit of a gloomy chap, isn't he?