8 ms·

> He educated me on the meaning of "Ukraine" being essentially "borderland." He's probably a speaker of Russian, so he assumes the Russian meaning of the word

by geoka9 10y ago

> He educated me on the meaning of "Ukraine" being essentially "borderland." He's probably a speaker of Russian, so he assumes the Russian meaning of the word to be canonical. Which is rather ignorant, because the word has a different meaning in Ukrainian - it literally means 'country'. It is similar in Polish ('country' vs 'edge'/'border'/'region' in Russian) and probably other Slavonic languages.

nathan_f77 10y ago
I don't know how accurate this is, but I found this on Wikipedia: > The traditional theory (which was widely supported by historians and linguists in the 19–20th centuries, see e.g. Max Vasmer's etymological dictionary of Russian) is that the modern name of the country is derived from the term "ukraina" in the sense ‘borderland, frontier region, marches’ etc. These meanings can be derived from the Proto-Slavic noun *krajь, meaning ‘edge, border’. Contemporary parallels for this are Russian okráina ‘outskirts’ and kraj ‘border district’. However: > Some Ukrainian scholars, such as Hryhoriy Pivtorak, Fedir Shevchenko, Mykola Andrusyak, Serhiy Shelukhin believe that the name is derived from ukraina in the sense of ‘region, principality, country’. Many medieval occurrences of the word can be interpreted as having that meaning. In this sense, the word can be associated with contemporary Ukrainian krajina, Belarusian kraina and Russian and Polish kraj, all meaning ‘country’ (see Translations, 'region of land'). So different people have different interpretations. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine
- int_19h 10y ago
  The problem with the latter explanation is that it doesn't explain where "u" came from. Etymologically, "kraina" is indeed "country" or "land", that's true. But "u" is a preposition meaning "at", "by", "near" (in both languages - it's unchanged from Old East Slavic). So "u+kraina" would mean something like "near the country"... which sounds a lot like borderlands, does it not? At which point we're back at square one. In general, when linguistics gets politicized, and there are multiple competing theories with various implications, take a look at the geographic spread of each. If it's politically relevant for one country, and one particular theory is only popular in that country, it's probably being promoted for political reasons. If it's widespread in academic circles of many different countries, including those that don't have any stakes in any associated politics disputes, it's more likely to be factual.
  - zzzcpan 10y ago
    "So "u+kraina" would mean something like "near the country"... which sounds a lot like borderlands, does it not? " It doesn't really. Ukrainian meaning of "u" is different from Russian, it's more like a Russian "v". For example "u lavtsi" translates to something like "in the shop", but never "near the shop", at the same time in Russian it would be "v lavke". It's just that heavily pushed "borderland" narrative makes it hard to think straight about this, especially for Russians.
    - int_19h 10y ago
      In modern Ukrainian, sure. In modern Russian, the word isn't correctly formed, either. But we're not talking about either one of those. The word is much older than that - about 8 centuries old if you count back to the first time it can be found in written text, and about 4 centuries if you count to its first use specifically to refer to Ukraine.
      - zzzcpan 10y ago
        Well, 8 centuries ago even the word "Въкраина" was used. It doesn't fit into the narrative.
        int_19h 10y ago
        For what, the territory that's now the country Ukraine? I'm not saying that 8 centuries ago, that territory was called by that name. Why would it be, when it was still the heartland of Kievan Rus? I'm saying that the word "оукраина" was used to mean borderlands then, such ones as they had. And then 4 centuries later, that exact word became the name of the border territory of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth that covers pretty much the entirety of today's Western and Central Ukraine, in the language of people inhabiting that territory, said language being a direct descendant of the language spoken 4 centuries before... I would dare say that a straightforward explanation is that the word retained its meaning, and was used in that meaning, because at that time it really was applicable to the territory in question. All the dots connect here in obvious ways. In contrast, if we assume that "ukraina" was derived from "kraina" for "homeland" instead, and try to backtrack, we need to explain how "u-" got there, and why the fact that the result matched the word that historically meant "borderlands" is entirely coincidental. I've seen some very convoluted explanations of this that could work, but Occam's razor still applies - between two explanations that both match observed evidence, the simpler one is preferable. Which is probably why the "borderlands" etymology is widely accepted among linguists throughout the world, while various alternative theories all seem to have Ukrainian authors. I get that this is a very politicized question in Ukraine, especially since Russian nationalists and irredentists have been trying to interpret the "borderlands" etymology to imply that Ukraine was historically self-identifying as a border territory of Russia - which is, of course, blatantly false. But I don't think that starting with a premise that is more politically palatable, and then backtracking from there to recreate the (less likely) etymology to fit, is a good way to deal with it.
int_19h 10y ago
"Country" in Ukrainian is "krayina", not "ukrayina". FWIW, since the word "Ukraine" is first attested in written form as early as 12th century, its etymology has to be derived from the (then still common) Eastern Slavic of that period, rather than the modern meanings of either Russian or Ukrainian. And in that language, "ukraina" - "оукраина" - did mean "borderlands" BTW, it doesn't appear to have become the name of the territory, and later the country, because it was borderlands of Muscovy/Russia. Rather, it seems to have originated in the western parts, because they were the borderlands of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Russia historically preferred the term "Little Russia" (Malorossiya) to imply cultural affinity and justify territorial claims, to the point of proscribing the usage of "Ukraine" in imperial times.
- qaq 10y ago
  Moscow was founded by Duke of Kiev Yuri Dolgorukiy as a border post. So the Russian border land interpretation is not even funny. One of the first written uses was in Kiev's 'litopys' in relation to the death of grand son of Yuri Dolgorukiy.
emanreus 10y ago
> It is similar in Polish ('country' vs 'edge'/'border'/'region' in Russian) and probably other Slavonic languages. South Slavs have multiple historical examples of Krajina(s) and they all represented bordering area, edge, (military) frontier. In a broad sense kraj/krai means area, land, place. But krajina(s) were always bordering areas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krajina https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krajina There's also Polish example of Krajna, the bordering region between Greater Poland and Pomerania. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krajna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krajna Of course, linguistics can and do get politicized so...

by geoka9 10y ago

nathan_f77 10y ago

I don't know how accurate this is, but I found this on Wikipedia: > The traditional theory (which was widely supported by historians and linguists in the 19–20th centuries, see e.g. Max Vasmer's etymological dictionary of Russian) is that the modern name of the country is derived from the term "ukraina" in the sense ‘borderland, frontier region, marches’ etc. These meanings can be derived from the Proto-Slavic noun *krajь, meaning ‘edge, border’. Contemporary parallels for this are Russian okráina ‘outskirts’ and kraj ‘border district’. However: > Some Ukrainian scholars, such as Hryhoriy Pivtorak, Fedir Shevchenko, Mykola Andrusyak, Serhiy Shelukhin believe that the name is derived from ukraina in the sense of ‘region, principality, country’. Many medieval occurrences of the word can be interpreted as having that meaning. In this sense, the word can be associated with contemporary Ukrainian krajina, Belarusian kraina and Russian and Polish kraj, all meaning ‘country’ (see Translations, 'region of land'). So different people have different interpretations. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine

int_19h 10y ago
The problem with the latter explanation is that it doesn't explain where "u" came from. Etymologically, "kraina" is indeed "country" or "land", that's true. But "u" is a preposition meaning "at", "by", "near" (in both languages - it's unchanged from Old East Slavic). So "u+kraina" would mean something like "near the country"... which sounds a lot like borderlands, does it not? At which point we're back at square one. In general, when linguistics gets politicized, and there are multiple competing theories with various implications, take a look at the geographic spread of each. If it's politically relevant for one country, and one particular theory is only popular in that country, it's probably being promoted for political reasons. If it's widespread in academic circles of many different countries, including those that don't have any stakes in any associated politics disputes, it's more likely to be factual.
- zzzcpan 10y ago
  "So "u+kraina" would mean something like "near the country"... which sounds a lot like borderlands, does it not? " It doesn't really. Ukrainian meaning of "u" is different from Russian, it's more like a Russian "v". For example "u lavtsi" translates to something like "in the shop", but never "near the shop", at the same time in Russian it would be "v lavke". It's just that heavily pushed "borderland" narrative makes it hard to think straight about this, especially for Russians.
  - int_19h 10y ago
    In modern Ukrainian, sure. In modern Russian, the word isn't correctly formed, either. But we're not talking about either one of those. The word is much older than that - about 8 centuries old if you count back to the first time it can be found in written text, and about 4 centuries if you count to its first use specifically to refer to Ukraine.
    - zzzcpan 10y ago
      Well, 8 centuries ago even the word "Въкраина" was used. It doesn't fit into the narrative.
      - int_19h 10y ago
        For what, the territory that's now the country Ukraine? I'm not saying that 8 centuries ago, that territory was called by that name. Why would it be, when it was still the heartland of Kievan Rus? I'm saying that the word "оукраина" was used to mean borderlands then, such ones as they had. And then 4 centuries later, that exact word became the name of the border territory of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth that covers pretty much the entirety of today's Western and Central Ukraine, in the language of people inhabiting that territory, said language being a direct descendant of the language spoken 4 centuries before... I would dare say that a straightforward explanation is that the word retained its meaning, and was used in that meaning, because at that time it really was applicable to the territory in question. All the dots connect here in obvious ways. In contrast, if we assume that "ukraina" was derived from "kraina" for "homeland" instead, and try to backtrack, we need to explain how "u-" got there, and why the fact that the result matched the word that historically meant "borderlands" is entirely coincidental. I've seen some very convoluted explanations of this that could work, but Occam's razor still applies - between two explanations that both match observed evidence, the simpler one is preferable. Which is probably why the "borderlands" etymology is widely accepted among linguists throughout the world, while various alternative theories all seem to have Ukrainian authors. I get that this is a very politicized question in Ukraine, especially since Russian nationalists and irredentists have been trying to interpret the "borderlands" etymology to imply that Ukraine was historically self-identifying as a border territory of Russia - which is, of course, blatantly false. But I don't think that starting with a premise that is more politically palatable, and then backtracking from there to recreate the (less likely) etymology to fit, is a good way to deal with it.

int_19h 10y ago

"Country" in Ukrainian is "krayina", not "ukrayina". FWIW, since the word "Ukraine" is first attested in written form as early as 12th century, its etymology has to be derived from the (then still common) Eastern Slavic of that period, rather than the modern meanings of either Russian or Ukrainian. And in that language, "ukraina" - "оукраина" - did mean "borderlands" BTW, it doesn't appear to have become the name of the territory, and later the country, because it was borderlands of Muscovy/Russia. Rather, it seems to have originated in the western parts, because they were the borderlands of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Russia historically preferred the term "Little Russia" (Malorossiya) to imply cultural affinity and justify territorial claims, to the point of proscribing the usage of "Ukraine" in imperial times.

qaq 10y ago
Moscow was founded by Duke of Kiev Yuri Dolgorukiy as a border post. So the Russian border land interpretation is not even funny. One of the first written uses was in Kiev's 'litopys' in relation to the death of grand son of Yuri Dolgorukiy.

emanreus 10y ago

> It is similar in Polish ('country' vs 'edge'/'border'/'region' in Russian) and probably other Slavonic languages. South Slavs have multiple historical examples of Krajina(s) and they all represented bordering area, edge, (military) frontier. In a broad sense kraj/krai means area, land, place. But krajina(s) were always bordering areas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krajina https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krajina There's also Polish example of Krajna, the bordering region between Greater Poland and Pomerania. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krajna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krajna Of course, linguistics can and do get politicized so...