5 ms·

>He educated me on the meaning of "Ukraine" being essentially "borderland." Incidentally, this is why they've been getting people to stop calling it The Ukrain

by SerLava 10y ago

>He educated me on the meaning of "Ukraine" being essentially "borderland." Incidentally, this is why they've been getting people to stop calling it The Ukraine - because Ukraine is more like a normal country name, while "The Ukraine" is like saying "The Borderland (of Russia)"

Waterluvian 10y ago
Interesting! That certainly seems like an act of branding to me, eh?
- pash 10y ago
  Yes, or something like it. It wasn't deliberate enough to suggest "branding" to me, per se, but it did mark a change in self-perception, and a change in how Ukrainians wanted to be perceived by the rest of the world. Slavic languages lack articles, so in Russian and Ukrainian the linguistic phenomenon SerLava describes manifests only as a choice between using the preposition на versus в (which roughly correspond to the English prepostions in and on) to say "in [the] Ukraine". Using на was standard until after Ukrainian independence, but because на connotes being in an open space or in an indeterminate area (as on sometimes does in English , e.g., on Trafalgar square, on the border) whereas в is the usual preposition signifying being inside a definite space, including being inside a country's borders, Ukrainians reacted against the usage of на, feeling it emphasized the "on the borderlands" understanding of what [the] Ukraine was. Using в quickly became standard in Ukraine, and the choice of в versus на became a sort of liguistic tell to a Russian-speaker's political and cultural tendencies. The distinction between using or not using the definite article in English and other languages followed. Interestingly, I always say Ukraine rather than the Ukraine in English, but I tend to use на in Russian.
  - GreenWinters 10y ago
    > Using в quickly became standard in Ukraine, and the choice of в versus на became a sort of liguistic tell to a Russian-speaker's political and cultural tendencies. Doesn't seem THAT telling to me. Saying "на Україні" is very common in the Ukrainian language, and lots of Ukrainians use bits of Ukrainian while speaking Russian. I wouldn't be shocked to hear "на Украине" from a Ukrainian, and I most definitely wouldn't make assumptions about political tendencies based on it.
cynwoody 10y ago
In Google Translate (English to Russian), "Ukraine" and "the Ukraine" both give the same result, namely "Украины". Not surprising, given Russian lacks the definite article "the". However, "the Outskirts" translates to "окраины", which when pronounced, sounds very close to "Украины". "Uh cra eena" vs "Oo cra eena". Translating Russian to English involves interpolating articles, definite and indefinite. I now have an inkling of how this controversy arose.
- int_19h 10y ago
  There's actually an equivalent of the distinction between "Ukraine" and "The Ukraine" in Russian. As you rightly note, it doesn't have the definite article, but the distinction does show up in prepositions instead. In Russian, when you speak of a named geographic region, the preposition for "in" (as in "10 million people live in ...") is used - in Russian, it's "v". On the other hand, if it's not a name, but rather a descriptive designation like "borderlands", then the preposition for "on" is used - in Russian, it's "na". So, English "in Ukraine" becomes "v Ukraine". But English "in the Ukraine" becomes "na Ukraine". In modern Russian, both are considered acceptable, but the latter is generally considered normative, and is what most people use. Needless to say, Ukrainians strongly prefer "v", even when speaking Russian (it's unconditionally "v" in Ukrainian, where the same distinction exists). This is a regular cause of flames and edit wars on the Net between Russian and Ukrainian users.
  - varjag 10y ago
    > In Russian, when you speak of a named geographic region, the preposition for "in" (as in "10 million people live in ...") is used - in Russian, it's "v". On the other hand, if it's not a name, but rather a descriptive designation like "borderlands", then the preposition for "on" is used - in Russian, it's "na". Except that there is no "rule" for that, other than established use, and even that is not consistent. People who insist on "na Ukraine" would somehow never say "na Serbskoi Kraine" or "na Khabarovskom Krae".
    - codedokode 10y ago
Freak_NL 10y ago
Interesting how this varies by language. Dutch doesn't have it (I've never learned it with a definite article), German and French still use it mostly as far as I can tell, and in English it is gradually disappearing.
- dghf 10y ago
  French does it for every country (as far as I know): la France, l'Angleterre, les Etats-Unis. It's not something specific to Ukraine.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - Rexxar 10y ago
    There are some exceptions : Israël, Taïwan, Cuba, Haïti
    - dghf 10y ago
      That I did not know. I found a page with a bunch more of them: https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/fr-cuba-article.215749/ https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/fr-cuba-article.2157... No one seems to really know why.
gotchange 10y ago
In Arabic, some country names get the definite article "al ال" like "(The) Iraq العراق" while most don't and "Ukraine أوكرانيا" is definitely one of them.

by SerLava 10y ago

Waterluvian 10y ago

Interesting! That certainly seems like an act of branding to me, eh?

pash 10y ago
Yes, or something like it. It wasn't deliberate enough to suggest "branding" to me, per se, but it did mark a change in self-perception, and a change in how Ukrainians wanted to be perceived by the rest of the world. Slavic languages lack articles, so in Russian and Ukrainian the linguistic phenomenon SerLava describes manifests only as a choice between using the preposition на versus в (which roughly correspond to the English prepostions in and on) to say "in [the] Ukraine". Using на was standard until after Ukrainian independence, but because на connotes being in an open space or in an indeterminate area (as on sometimes does in English , e.g., on Trafalgar square, on the border) whereas в is the usual preposition signifying being inside a definite space, including being inside a country's borders, Ukrainians reacted against the usage of на, feeling it emphasized the "on the borderlands" understanding of what [the] Ukraine was. Using в quickly became standard in Ukraine, and the choice of в versus на became a sort of liguistic tell to a Russian-speaker's political and cultural tendencies. The distinction between using or not using the definite article in English and other languages followed. Interestingly, I always say Ukraine rather than the Ukraine in English, but I tend to use на in Russian.
- GreenWinters 10y ago
  > Using в quickly became standard in Ukraine, and the choice of в versus на became a sort of liguistic tell to a Russian-speaker's political and cultural tendencies. Doesn't seem THAT telling to me. Saying "на Україні" is very common in the Ukrainian language, and lots of Ukrainians use bits of Ukrainian while speaking Russian. I wouldn't be shocked to hear "на Украине" from a Ukrainian, and I most definitely wouldn't make assumptions about political tendencies based on it.

cynwoody 10y ago

In Google Translate (English to Russian), "Ukraine" and "the Ukraine" both give the same result, namely "Украины". Not surprising, given Russian lacks the definite article "the". However, "the Outskirts" translates to "окраины", which when pronounced, sounds very close to "Украины". "Uh cra eena" vs "Oo cra eena". Translating Russian to English involves interpolating articles, definite and indefinite. I now have an inkling of how this controversy arose.

int_19h 10y ago
There's actually an equivalent of the distinction between "Ukraine" and "The Ukraine" in Russian. As you rightly note, it doesn't have the definite article, but the distinction does show up in prepositions instead. In Russian, when you speak of a named geographic region, the preposition for "in" (as in "10 million people live in ...") is used - in Russian, it's "v". On the other hand, if it's not a name, but rather a descriptive designation like "borderlands", then the preposition for "on" is used - in Russian, it's "na". So, English "in Ukraine" becomes "v Ukraine". But English "in the Ukraine" becomes "na Ukraine". In modern Russian, both are considered acceptable, but the latter is generally considered normative, and is what most people use. Needless to say, Ukrainians strongly prefer "v", even when speaking Russian (it's unconditionally "v" in Ukrainian, where the same distinction exists). This is a regular cause of flames and edit wars on the Net between Russian and Ukrainian users.
- varjag 10y ago
  > In Russian, when you speak of a named geographic region, the preposition for "in" (as in "10 million people live in ...") is used - in Russian, it's "v". On the other hand, if it's not a name, but rather a descriptive designation like "borderlands", then the preposition for "on" is used - in Russian, it's "na". Except that there is no "rule" for that, other than established use, and even that is not consistent. People who insist on "na Ukraine" would somehow never say "na Serbskoi Kraine" or "na Khabarovskom Krae".
  - codedokode 10y ago

Freak_NL 10y ago

Interesting how this varies by language. Dutch doesn't have it (I've never learned it with a definite article), German and French still use it mostly as far as I can tell, and in English it is gradually disappearing.

dghf 10y ago
French does it for every country (as far as I know): la France, l'Angleterre, les Etats-Unis. It's not something specific to Ukraine.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- Rexxar 10y ago
  There are some exceptions : Israël, Taïwan, Cuba, Haïti
  - dghf 10y ago
    That I did not know. I found a page with a bunch more of them: https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/fr-cuba-article.215749/ https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/fr-cuba-article.2157... No one seems to really know why.

gotchange 10y ago

In Arabic, some country names get the definite article "al ال" like "(The) Iraq العراق" while most don't and "Ukraine أوكرانيا" is definitely one of them.