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Crappy windows support for OCaml. F# is similar to OCaml, but is very difficult for beginners and those not familiar with .NET. I also don't see a lot of beginn

Crappy windows support for OCaml. F# is similar to OCaml, but is very difficult for beginners and those not familiar with .NET. I also don't see a lot of beginner material for OCaml.

nv-vn 10y ago
True, but at least for compilers Windows support shouldn't be a big deal. This is because the Windows support is mostly only an issue when using certain libraries, and since compilers rarely have many dependencies it's often a non-issue. The beginner material is kind of true as well, although I do believe that the little beginner material that exists for OCaml (pretty much just the official documentation/Learn OCaml and Real World OCaml) are much easier to get started with than the tutorials of many other languages. OCaml's learning material is pretty short and to-the-point, and I found it to be a good set of boot-strap knowledge: I pretty much learned the core language in 3-4 days or so and then went on to explore the various libraries, tools, and language features not covered by the basic tutorials at my own pace.
poizan42 10y ago
At computer science at the University of Copenhagen F# has been used for the introduction courses the past couple of years, which as far as I know has been a big success, so I'm doubtful of it not being beginner friendly
- throwaway7645 10y ago
  Mileage is probably not representative when you're in a university setting being taught by professors in an intro course versus a professional trying to use a multitude of the data science libraries and having trouble tying it together. Python has a zillion books published and a large percentage of them are beginner oriented. F# has only a few books and they are almost all for experts.
  - jackfoxy 10y ago
    The community surrounding F# today is very supportive and helpful with people of all experience levels. Compared to when I learned F# in 2010 it is orders of magnitude easier and more social. So many resources: the F# Foundation website http://fsharp.org/ http://fsharp.org/ is a good place to start. http://fsharpforfunandprofit.com/ http://fsharpforfunandprofit.com/ and the book form of the site's articles on github https://swlaschin.gitbooks.io/fsharpforfunandprofit/content/site-contents/index.html https://swlaschin.gitbooks.io/fsharpforfunandprofit/content/... has great information for people at all levels. And finally just get on twitter #fsharp to start meeting people in the community.
    - throwaway7645 10y ago
      I've gone through all of those and although it's nice, it is not what I'd call beginner friendly at all. Python has books teaching you to program in Python which is a really good way to learn a programming language. Scott's tutorial using Frankenstein to explain Monads is interesting, but I need to see how to build simple programs and modules first. How does one organize a program using pure FP, or what's the best way to mix in OOP and it is really confusing to learn all the pragmas and compiler directives. I'm not sure if I'm using the right terminology, but a lot of example code uses FSI which has to call the modules differently than if you make an executable. I really would love nothing more than F# to be my go to language, but I need a little more help getting there. I realize not all users have this problem though.
      - jackmott 10y ago
        i am an expert and Scott's website is usually bananas to me. For some people his approach doesn't seem to click. A good beginner book for F# is a good idea.
        throwaway7645 10y ago
        Glad to hear I'm not the only one lol. I'd spend top dollar for a beginner's book focusing on creating short 1/2 page programs like guess my number, hangman, plotting graphs...etc and only mix in things like currying and monads later in the book along with C# interop.
- dogfishbar 10y ago
  I have been teaching OCaml in CS1 at Boston College for 4 years now. Of hundreds of students who went on to learn Java in our CS2 course (joining Python-trained students from other sections of CS1), nearly unanimous happy campers. When OCaml is their first programming language, they're good to go.
  - throwaway7645 10y ago
    Is the course material online?
ms013 10y ago
I've moved to doing ocaml development on my windows 10 machine under the windows subsystem for Linux. The Linux ocaml tool chain works pretty seamlessly there. Works very smoothly relative to past experiences with native ocaml compilers on windows.
haskellandchill 10y ago
OCaml from the Very Beginning is amazing beginner material.
- throwaway7645 10y ago
  Thanks, I'll take a look again. He has some sample chapters posted that look really short(3 pages), but I'm guessing that is just a chapter snippet as the book itself is 200 pages?
  - haskellandchill 10y ago
    The book is short, but there are plenty of exercises and worked solutions in the back. Do the exercises and you will get your money's worth. I suggest buying it with the bundle because More OCaml is good also.
batmansmk 10y ago
In France, my two first years of CS were taught in OCaml. 20k+ students are learning that way every year over there. We learn about recursions, complexity, types, compilers, language theory, graph theory ... without leaving the confort of one expressive language. I terribly missed OCaml when I had to realign with the technologies promoted in job offers and expected within the industry.
- throwaway7645 10y ago
  I imagine Inria has some influence there as well as FP is good to teach in college. It's always a tough balance choosing between what is more relevant as computer science (Lisp, Prolog, OCaml...etc) versus what will get students paid money (Java, JavaScript, C++, or Python). I'm glad you had a positive experience and as i asked below, do you have the course material? And outside of the basic things you learn in school/mention above, could you use it in your daily job? Is there enough library support?

Crappy windows support for OCaml. F# is similar to OCaml, but is very difficult for beginners and those not familiar with .NET. I also don't see a lot of beginner material for OCaml.

nv-vn 10y ago

True, but at least for compilers Windows support shouldn't be a big deal. This is because the Windows support is mostly only an issue when using certain libraries, and since compilers rarely have many dependencies it's often a non-issue. The beginner material is kind of true as well, although I do believe that the little beginner material that exists for OCaml (pretty much just the official documentation/Learn OCaml and Real World OCaml) are much easier to get started with than the tutorials of many other languages. OCaml's learning material is pretty short and to-the-point, and I found it to be a good set of boot-strap knowledge: I pretty much learned the core language in 3-4 days or so and then went on to explore the various libraries, tools, and language features not covered by the basic tutorials at my own pace.

poizan42 10y ago

At computer science at the University of Copenhagen F# has been used for the introduction courses the past couple of years, which as far as I know has been a big success, so I'm doubtful of it not being beginner friendly

throwaway7645 10y ago
Mileage is probably not representative when you're in a university setting being taught by professors in an intro course versus a professional trying to use a multitude of the data science libraries and having trouble tying it together. Python has a zillion books published and a large percentage of them are beginner oriented. F# has only a few books and they are almost all for experts.
- jackfoxy 10y ago
  The community surrounding F# today is very supportive and helpful with people of all experience levels. Compared to when I learned F# in 2010 it is orders of magnitude easier and more social. So many resources: the F# Foundation website http://fsharp.org/ http://fsharp.org/ is a good place to start. http://fsharpforfunandprofit.com/ http://fsharpforfunandprofit.com/ and the book form of the site's articles on github https://swlaschin.gitbooks.io/fsharpforfunandprofit/content/site-contents/index.html https://swlaschin.gitbooks.io/fsharpforfunandprofit/content/... has great information for people at all levels. And finally just get on twitter #fsharp to start meeting people in the community.
  - throwaway7645 10y ago
    I've gone through all of those and although it's nice, it is not what I'd call beginner friendly at all. Python has books teaching you to program in Python which is a really good way to learn a programming language. Scott's tutorial using Frankenstein to explain Monads is interesting, but I need to see how to build simple programs and modules first. How does one organize a program using pure FP, or what's the best way to mix in OOP and it is really confusing to learn all the pragmas and compiler directives. I'm not sure if I'm using the right terminology, but a lot of example code uses FSI which has to call the modules differently than if you make an executable. I really would love nothing more than F# to be my go to language, but I need a little more help getting there. I realize not all users have this problem though.
    - jackmott 10y ago
      i am an expert and Scott's website is usually bananas to me. For some people his approach doesn't seem to click. A good beginner book for F# is a good idea.
      - throwaway7645 10y ago
        Glad to hear I'm not the only one lol. I'd spend top dollar for a beginner's book focusing on creating short 1/2 page programs like guess my number, hangman, plotting graphs...etc and only mix in things like currying and monads later in the book along with C# interop.
dogfishbar 10y ago
I have been teaching OCaml in CS1 at Boston College for 4 years now. Of hundreds of students who went on to learn Java in our CS2 course (joining Python-trained students from other sections of CS1), nearly unanimous happy campers. When OCaml is their first programming language, they're good to go.
- throwaway7645 10y ago
  Is the course material online?

ms013 10y ago

I've moved to doing ocaml development on my windows 10 machine under the windows subsystem for Linux. The Linux ocaml tool chain works pretty seamlessly there. Works very smoothly relative to past experiences with native ocaml compilers on windows.

haskellandchill 10y ago

OCaml from the Very Beginning is amazing beginner material.

throwaway7645 10y ago
Thanks, I'll take a look again. He has some sample chapters posted that look really short(3 pages), but I'm guessing that is just a chapter snippet as the book itself is 200 pages?
- haskellandchill 10y ago
  The book is short, but there are plenty of exercises and worked solutions in the back. Do the exercises and you will get your money's worth. I suggest buying it with the bundle because More OCaml is good also.

batmansmk 10y ago

In France, my two first years of CS were taught in OCaml. 20k+ students are learning that way every year over there. We learn about recursions, complexity, types, compilers, language theory, graph theory ... without leaving the confort of one expressive language. I terribly missed OCaml when I had to realign with the technologies promoted in job offers and expected within the industry.

throwaway7645 10y ago
I imagine Inria has some influence there as well as FP is good to teach in college. It's always a tough balance choosing between what is more relevant as computer science (Lisp, Prolog, OCaml...etc) versus what will get students paid money (Java, JavaScript, C++, or Python). I'm glad you had a positive experience and as i asked below, do you have the course material? And outside of the basic things you learn in school/mention above, could you use it in your daily job? Is there enough library support?