6 ms·

China's return to religion

51 points by magda_wang 10y ago

personjerry 10y ago
I'm of the understanding that many Chinese families are "spiritual" and believe in "traditions" and "folklore" but institutionalize religion as it is known in the west is not really seen in China. That's why I wonder if the "oh no it's not religion because the government controls religion" arguments are the author jumping to conclusions. This in fact seems like the patronizing form of Orientalism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism In the sense that we are forcing our Western understanding of religion onto our understanding of Chinese "religion", and then drawing conclusions from there. I question the validity of the author's claim that a Chinese person said: "oh no it's not religion because the government controls religion" because it's unlikely for a Chinese person to openly talk against the government like that, especially with a foreigner, especially with a stranger.
- Cyph0n 10y ago
  Isn't that because the CCP is against religion?
baobrain 10y ago
My experience in China as a student point me to believe that most Chinese kowtow and go to temples for tradition and spirituality rather than institutionalized religion. The entire article sounds like a westerner applying their cultural values and their sense of righteousness to China. For example: >"But I do think that it does create values that are higher than any government's values - ideas of righteousness and justice that people are inspired by and that will inspire them to action if they feel that they are unjustly treated by the government." (I'm an american born chinese but was brought to China for about 6 years by my mother) Edit: My grandmother is extremely Buddhist, and both my mother and I are nonreligious. Even so, my mother brought me to the Confucius temple to kowtow and light incense, not because it actually did anything, but because it was a move of ancestral respect and tradition.
- gaoshan 10y ago
  The line you quote is so annoyingly on target of the stereotypical American cultural bias that it just turns my stomach. Most Christians I have encountered in China (and I mean Chinese, not the typically evangelical American "missionaries) fall into 2 broad groups. People that would be at home in American style "prosperity movement" churches and, to a lesser extent, people that seem a little on the unstable side. The Buddhist, Daoist and generally Confucian flavored traditions seems more like legitimate tradition, not what the article tries to claim.
  - osicanstos 10y ago
    The funny part is that most of the Chinese (and Korean) Christians that I meet still pray to their ancestors.
    - nsxwolf 10y ago
      That's a completely normal practice in Catholicism.
      - bionsuba 10y ago
        That's not quite true. Catholics pray for their ancestors and pray to the saints when not praying straight to God.
        nsxwolf 10y ago
        This isn't true. All the saved are saints, even if they aren't canonized. It is reasonable to assume that they are in such a state and thus engage them in intercessory prayer like any other saint.
        bionsuba 10y ago
        Right, but Catholics don't know who are the saved. So, they pray to God and the saints for their ancestors because they might not be saved.
taksintikk 10y ago
That's unfortunate. I thought the official communist stance of atheism helped them grow in multiples not possible for dogmatic societies.
- unit91 10y ago
  That doesn't mean China has no dogma, it means atheism is its dogma. Google's definition: dogma: (noun) a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true
  - Koshkin 10y ago
    Of two dogmas that are opposite to each other one must be closer to the truth. Guess which one it is.
    - dang 10y ago
      Please don't do generic religion arguments here. It's unsubstantive and converges to flamewar.
  - kapauldo 10y ago
    Atheism is not dogma. That's wordsmithing to help believers in god feel comfort in a false equivalency between conception withour sperm and the cosmos / observable world empiricism.
    - ue_ 10y ago
      Atheism certainly can be dogma, especially in the strong variety. It is usually also coupled with a healthy dose of scientism.
      - dlwdlw 10y ago
        Yea, science is often weaponized by non-scientific people as an im-smarter-cudgel.
    - 10y ago
peter303 10y ago
Only two Christian denominations permitted: old Latin Catholic and a generic Protestant.
mbfg 10y ago
There's a diamond, buried in my backyard, the size of a washing machine. Knowing it's there, gives my life meaning. It bring me peace, and guides my life. Frankly, i wouldn't want to life in a universe where that diamond wasn't there. -- Harris 4:2
- mirimir 10y ago
  See http://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/secular-philosophies/why-religion-must-end-interview-with-sam-harris.aspx?p=3 http://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/secular-philosophies/why-rel...
hackuser 10y ago
What about Confucianism? It's odd to read an article about religion in China that doesn't even mention it (other than reference to the temples, which I assume were Confucian). Perhaps there's something I misunderstand. AFAIK Confucianism isn't a religion worshiping a supernatural being as much as a philosophy and culture which includes ancestor worship. But my understanding, based on a little reading and study of my own, is that it played a very similar role to religion in Western countries. Generally speaking, it was the 'religion' of China from around 250 BCE until at least 1911.
- Markoff 10y ago
  you answered your own question, it's not religion but philosophy, similar to Buddhism which ain't religion too, depending on definition
  - ZanyProgrammer 10y ago
    I think all three (Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism) can be religions in the traditional sense or not, it very much depends.
  - sorokod 10y ago
    To see Buddhism as a full blown religion ( and very aggressive at that) visit Burma or Sri Lanka
- dlwdlw 10y ago
  A misconception is that Confucianism, Buddhism, Taoism, etc... were more lifestyles or beliefs than religions. In terms of influence over life, they were very much like religions historically.
contingencies 10y ago
16 years in China (many cities and towns and villages) here. No evidence of religion except in strange cases where they have a Christian family and go to government-approved/run churches. My wife is muslim and the general situation is that while they don't eat pork, people drink alcohol and wear normal clothes and are otherwise perfectly the same as regular Chinese people. They only go to the mosque for weddings and funerals. Other comments are correct re: ritual (particularly in Confucian cases) far trumps any notion of what westerners would label religion. ie. Basically the entire notion of the article is bullshit. (Sorry to left-wing NPR-worshipping American friends, and "Pullitzer prize winning" Beijing-dwelling author trying to sell a book)
- ZanyProgrammer 10y ago
  There's the phenomenon of "cultural" Christians (of all denominations)who only attend church for lifecycle events and major holidays like Christmas and Easter. Quite often they are looked down upon by more heated Protestants.
  - Broken_Hippo 10y ago
    That isn't just Protestants. Happens in both Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. I'd reckon this is a fairly common thing.
  - henrikschroder 10y ago
    When I grew up in Sweden in the 80's, I was a member of the state church despite not being baptized, because it was the state church, and my parents were members, so I was automatically added. Almost everyone of my classmates were baptized and later confirmed. Everyone went to weddings and funerals in church. The school semester ending gatherings were held in church, we sung psalms, a priest read the christmas gospel if it was christmas, and something lighter if it was summer. Some would wear a cross necklace. If you asked people if they were christian, most would say "yes". But noone was a believer. None of my classmates were christians. Almost none of their parents were. Yet to a casual observer, it would have appeared we were all good christian children. And since almost everyone was a member of the church, the official statistics backed it up. From the outside, you would have to poke pretty hard to figure out that no, none of these people are actually christian. And it seems like the guy in the article isn't poking hard enough. He just sees religious activity, and immediately equates that with religious belief. Why would people go to church if they're not religious? Why, indeed?
Apocryphon 10y ago
This article mostly talks about religions in terms of culture- customs and ritual practice and instilling traditional values- But I think there's also in a more positive sense that the government recognizes that there is a lack of values in society - that people don't believe in anything and there's a great uncertainty in society, a national malaise. And they also recognize that most people really don't believe in communism anymore. So they look at the traditional faiths as a way of instilling some kind of morality, basic principles for good living and that sort of thing. - as opposed to supernatural beliefs. The discussion thread should likewise focus on the social role that religion fulfills in terms of culture and public morality, because that was the emphasis of the article. Commentators are too easily jumping to the lightning rod of the validity of religious claims, ignoring other aspects that organized religion plays.
filereaper 10y ago
Interesting, if religion is on the upswing in China. I wonder how the people feel about the government's involvement with the Panchen Lama. [1] I didn't know much about this till recently. [1] https://youtu.be/bLY45o6rHm0 https://youtu.be/bLY45o6rHm0
woodandsteel 10y ago
From what I understand, a key reason the Chinese government is suspicious of Christianity and Islam is they are both universalist religions that hold that all human beings are sons and daughters of the same God, and so all deserve to be treated with respect. China, from what I understand, has traditionally held that the Chinese people and state are superior to everyone else, and so deserve a superior status in the world.
- Jack000 10y ago
  maybe prior to colonialism. The modern conservative Chinese narrative is more of an inferiority complex rather than the opposite. It's easy to see why the CCP is against religion - the party is rooted with the cult of Mao, which is a de-facto religion. And like most other religions it does not tolerate the existence of competing religions.
  - woodandsteel 10y ago
    >maybe prior to colonialism. The modern conservative Chinese narrative is more of an inferiority complex rather than the opposite. Yea, I see what you are saying. But I also get the impression they think they are going to regain their status as "the center of the world" >It's easy to see why the CCP is against religion - the party is rooted with the cult of Mao, which is a de-facto religion. And like most other religions it does not tolerate the existence of competing religions. Most definitely.

51 points by magda_wang 10y ago

I'm of the understanding that many Chinese families are "spiritual" and believe in "traditions" and "folklore" but institutionalize religion as it is known in the west is not really seen in China. That's why I wonder if the "oh no it's not religion because the government controls religion" arguments are the author jumping to conclusions. This in fact seems like the patronizing form of Orientalism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism In the sense that we are forcing our Western understanding of religion onto our understanding of Chinese "religion", and then drawing conclusions from there. I question the validity of the author's claim that a Chinese person said: "oh no it's not religion because the government controls religion" because it's unlikely for a Chinese person to openly talk against the government like that, especially with a foreigner, especially with a stranger.

Cyph0n 10y ago
Isn't that because the CCP is against religion?

baobrain 10y ago

My experience in China as a student point me to believe that most Chinese kowtow and go to temples for tradition and spirituality rather than institutionalized religion. The entire article sounds like a westerner applying their cultural values and their sense of righteousness to China. For example: >"But I do think that it does create values that are higher than any government's values - ideas of righteousness and justice that people are inspired by and that will inspire them to action if they feel that they are unjustly treated by the government." (I'm an american born chinese but was brought to China for about 6 years by my mother) Edit: My grandmother is extremely Buddhist, and both my mother and I are nonreligious. Even so, my mother brought me to the Confucius temple to kowtow and light incense, not because it actually did anything, but because it was a move of ancestral respect and tradition.

gaoshan 10y ago
The line you quote is so annoyingly on target of the stereotypical American cultural bias that it just turns my stomach. Most Christians I have encountered in China (and I mean Chinese, not the typically evangelical American "missionaries) fall into 2 broad groups. People that would be at home in American style "prosperity movement" churches and, to a lesser extent, people that seem a little on the unstable side. The Buddhist, Daoist and generally Confucian flavored traditions seems more like legitimate tradition, not what the article tries to claim.
- osicanstos 10y ago
  The funny part is that most of the Chinese (and Korean) Christians that I meet still pray to their ancestors.
  - nsxwolf 10y ago
    That's a completely normal practice in Catholicism.
    - bionsuba 10y ago
      That's not quite true. Catholics pray for their ancestors and pray to the saints when not praying straight to God.
      - nsxwolf 10y ago
        This isn't true. All the saved are saints, even if they aren't canonized. It is reasonable to assume that they are in such a state and thus engage them in intercessory prayer like any other saint.
        bionsuba 10y ago
        Right, but Catholics don't know who are the saved. So, they pray to God and the saints for their ancestors because they might not be saved.

taksintikk 10y ago

That's unfortunate. I thought the official communist stance of atheism helped them grow in multiples not possible for dogmatic societies.

unit91 10y ago
That doesn't mean China has no dogma, it means atheism is its dogma. Google's definition: dogma: (noun) a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true
- Koshkin 10y ago
  Of two dogmas that are opposite to each other one must be closer to the truth. Guess which one it is.
  - dang 10y ago
    Please don't do generic religion arguments here. It's unsubstantive and converges to flamewar.
- kapauldo 10y ago
  Atheism is not dogma. That's wordsmithing to help believers in god feel comfort in a false equivalency between conception withour sperm and the cosmos / observable world empiricism.
  - ue_ 10y ago
    Atheism certainly can be dogma, especially in the strong variety. It is usually also coupled with a healthy dose of scientism.
    - dlwdlw 10y ago
      Yea, science is often weaponized by non-scientific people as an im-smarter-cudgel.
  - 10y ago

peter303 10y ago

Only two Christian denominations permitted: old Latin Catholic and a generic Protestant.

mbfg 10y ago

There's a diamond, buried in my backyard, the size of a washing machine. Knowing it's there, gives my life meaning. It bring me peace, and guides my life. Frankly, i wouldn't want to life in a universe where that diamond wasn't there. -- Harris 4:2

mirimir 10y ago
See http://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/secular-philosophies/why-religion-must-end-interview-with-sam-harris.aspx?p=3 http://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/secular-philosophies/why-rel...

hackuser 10y ago

What about Confucianism? It's odd to read an article about religion in China that doesn't even mention it (other than reference to the temples, which I assume were Confucian). Perhaps there's something I misunderstand. AFAIK Confucianism isn't a religion worshiping a supernatural being as much as a philosophy and culture which includes ancestor worship. But my understanding, based on a little reading and study of my own, is that it played a very similar role to religion in Western countries. Generally speaking, it was the 'religion' of China from around 250 BCE until at least 1911.

Markoff 10y ago
you answered your own question, it's not religion but philosophy, similar to Buddhism which ain't religion too, depending on definition
- ZanyProgrammer 10y ago
  I think all three (Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism) can be religions in the traditional sense or not, it very much depends.
- sorokod 10y ago
  To see Buddhism as a full blown religion ( and very aggressive at that) visit Burma or Sri Lanka
dlwdlw 10y ago
A misconception is that Confucianism, Buddhism, Taoism, etc... were more lifestyles or beliefs than religions. In terms of influence over life, they were very much like religions historically.

contingencies 10y ago

16 years in China (many cities and towns and villages) here. No evidence of religion except in strange cases where they have a Christian family and go to government-approved/run churches. My wife is muslim and the general situation is that while they don't eat pork, people drink alcohol and wear normal clothes and are otherwise perfectly the same as regular Chinese people. They only go to the mosque for weddings and funerals. Other comments are correct re: ritual (particularly in Confucian cases) far trumps any notion of what westerners would label religion. ie. Basically the entire notion of the article is bullshit. (Sorry to left-wing NPR-worshipping American friends, and "Pullitzer prize winning" Beijing-dwelling author trying to sell a book)

ZanyProgrammer 10y ago
There's the phenomenon of "cultural" Christians (of all denominations)who only attend church for lifecycle events and major holidays like Christmas and Easter. Quite often they are looked down upon by more heated Protestants.
- Broken_Hippo 10y ago
  That isn't just Protestants. Happens in both Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. I'd reckon this is a fairly common thing.
- henrikschroder 10y ago
  When I grew up in Sweden in the 80's, I was a member of the state church despite not being baptized, because it was the state church, and my parents were members, so I was automatically added. Almost everyone of my classmates were baptized and later confirmed. Everyone went to weddings and funerals in church. The school semester ending gatherings were held in church, we sung psalms, a priest read the christmas gospel if it was christmas, and something lighter if it was summer. Some would wear a cross necklace. If you asked people if they were christian, most would say "yes". But noone was a believer. None of my classmates were christians. Almost none of their parents were. Yet to a casual observer, it would have appeared we were all good christian children. And since almost everyone was a member of the church, the official statistics backed it up. From the outside, you would have to poke pretty hard to figure out that no, none of these people are actually christian. And it seems like the guy in the article isn't poking hard enough. He just sees religious activity, and immediately equates that with religious belief. Why would people go to church if they're not religious? Why, indeed?

Apocryphon 10y ago

This article mostly talks about religions in terms of culture- customs and ritual practice and instilling traditional values- But I think there's also in a more positive sense that the government recognizes that there is a lack of values in society - that people don't believe in anything and there's a great uncertainty in society, a national malaise. And they also recognize that most people really don't believe in communism anymore. So they look at the traditional faiths as a way of instilling some kind of morality, basic principles for good living and that sort of thing. - as opposed to supernatural beliefs. The discussion thread should likewise focus on the social role that religion fulfills in terms of culture and public morality, because that was the emphasis of the article. Commentators are too easily jumping to the lightning rod of the validity of religious claims, ignoring other aspects that organized religion plays.

filereaper 10y ago

Interesting, if religion is on the upswing in China. I wonder how the people feel about the government's involvement with the Panchen Lama. [1] I didn't know much about this till recently. [1] https://youtu.be/bLY45o6rHm0 https://youtu.be/bLY45o6rHm0

woodandsteel 10y ago

From what I understand, a key reason the Chinese government is suspicious of Christianity and Islam is they are both universalist religions that hold that all human beings are sons and daughters of the same God, and so all deserve to be treated with respect. China, from what I understand, has traditionally held that the Chinese people and state are superior to everyone else, and so deserve a superior status in the world.

Jack000 10y ago
maybe prior to colonialism. The modern conservative Chinese narrative is more of an inferiority complex rather than the opposite. It's easy to see why the CCP is against religion - the party is rooted with the cult of Mao, which is a de-facto religion. And like most other religions it does not tolerate the existence of competing religions.
- woodandsteel 10y ago
  >maybe prior to colonialism. The modern conservative Chinese narrative is more of an inferiority complex rather than the opposite. Yea, I see what you are saying. But I also get the impression they think they are going to regain their status as "the center of the world" >It's easy to see why the CCP is against religion - the party is rooted with the cult of Mao, which is a de-facto religion. And like most other religions it does not tolerate the existence of competing religions. Most definitely.